Opinion: Advance Australia Where?

 

Lots of talk, but little detail on how the NBN might aid the Australian economy.

The $37 billion National Broadband Network got plenty of mentions at the launch of the 2011-12 Federal Budget, but the Government provided little insight into how it might help evolve Australia's Digital Economy. 

There was an expectation that the Budget announcement would provide a good opportunity to reveal a raft of investments around leveraging the benefits of the NBN before Communications Minister Stephen Conroy announces the Government’s Digital Economy Strategy at the end of this month.

There was precious little on offer.

The Budget papers talked of Australia being in transition from a commodity economy based on mining and agriculture to a "knowledge-based, diversified and service-oriented economy".

It noted that Australia performs poorly in terms of productivity, but the opportunity to discuss how the NBN and related initiatives could address this problem was muted.

Beyond the figures, initiatives aimed at “Building Australia’s Future Workforce” were announced with illustrations of men in hard hats, not knowledge workers.

Only a small number of budget initiatives were related to the Digital Economy.

The largest was a $580 million project over four years in ICT projects at the Department of Human Services.

The Department of Finance, meanwhile, will spend $2.3 million to “investigate and test ways to improve individuals’ ease of use and access to Australian Government services ... including allowing individuals to communicate updated details to multiple agencies simultaneously, pre-fill forms... and view all their government communications in one place.”

One hopes this study is completed before Human Services invests in new systems. 

The only other sizeable initiative is to establish a “single mental health portal” at a cost of $14.4 million over five years, part of $1.5 billion in new initiatives flagged to address Australia's mental health problems.

Other initiatives included $4 million in grants to the Attorney General's Department (again, over four years) to fund NBN-based delivery of legal services to citizens in regional Australia, and $4.2 million (over four years) to establish an “interactive MyRegion website to provide information about regional Australia.”

The lack of tangible progress on Digital Economy issues didn't deter Senator Conroy’s eagerness to promote the NBN. His media pack consisted of eight separate releases – one saying the Government had “strengthened its commitment to the NBN” and the other seven being tailored releases for each State and Territory (the ACT was combined with NSW) trumpeting that the NBN was “enhancing the lives of residents”. 

The overall financials concerning the NBN itself appear to have changed little from previous estimates.

So the best we can say is the Government is still committed to the NBN, but hasn‘t really developed any strategies for Digital Productivity. 

AIIA CEO Ian Birks felt the same sense of unfulfilled expectation about the initiatives anticipated in this budget.

"There are some good smaller commitments in this budget that focus on citizen engagement and building community confidence, however we need to deliver much more," he said after the Budget was handed down.

“We need a strategy that measures our progress, provides clear targets and sets out to understand the real implications of a digital economy in the Australian context.

"We will now be looking to the release of the National Digital Economy Strategy later this month to see whether it will provide the right impetus to develop globally leading digital economy in Australia."

Copyright © iTnews.com.au . All rights reserved.


Opinion: Advance Australia Where?
David Havyatt.
"MerariSchroeder wrote: Still going on about eSurgery? You're all making yourselves look ignorant. Actually you are making yourself look ignorant as I said earlier I dont care much for remote ..."
By HubertCumberdale
 
 
 
Comments: 36
sydneyla
May 11, 2011 7:59 AM
While knowing that faster broadband facilities would be acceptable to all, the detail of how the NBN would create wealth for Australia is uncertain. It may be true that future developments will uncover advances that will prosper Australia but if that is the case why the rush to spend untold billions at this time?
Rossyduck
May 11, 2011 8:12 AM
Yes there was a very conflicting story being told. It was of long term benefits but these looked more like rote platittudes. It appeared the immediate and short term goal of creating lots of dead end labouring type work was of more interest. No great stimulus of the knowledge economy.

I guess the biggest conflict though was the treasurer pointing out benefits for regional Australia. Small town regional Australia will be worse off - as per Quigly they need to pay for their own NBN connections (and subsidie the cities to boot) and Telstra has gratefully been let of the hook of maintaining the copper network.

Lots of spin ...
MerariSchroeder
May 11, 2011 8:44 AM
I am not expecting there to be any significant benefits from the NBN. There is no wealth generated from downloading a YouTube video faster. All of the established, tried and tested means of prosperity on the internet don't need 25Mbps to homes. Email, instructional video, eCommerce, eGovernment, eHealth, smart grid/meters, Twitter, Facebook, Google Maps, gaming, business applications, .... all exist with an internet improved incrementally by market forces.

It would certainly be nice to have consistent and readily upgradable internet services, but there is no demand, and there is certainly no economical justification for big government cash splashes. Leave it to the private market, they've successfully gone from 28.8 kbps (1994) to a max of 24Mbps (2003) in less than 10 years, that's a 833x improvement in over 9 years!

1994 is when 28.8kbps was available, but did everyone use it? 2003 is when ADSL2+ was available but did companies rush out to invest in new infrastructure? No! They waited for demand.

The technologies for our future speed growth have been around for some time now. It's not the technology that holds us back it's demand. Technologies such as LTE, HFC, VDSL2+ stand ready to carry us forward. FTTH is also, just another piece of the puzzle, that would see private investment into metropolitan and CBD rollouts. But only as there is a viable business case.

The NBN was a poorly contrived snap decision, and a perfect example of super-scope creep. The government was supposed to help rural citizens connect to more affordable internet. Now instead we are slated to have an overpriced solution which will tax the big cities.

The NBN - It's not nation building, it's ego building.
TReichle
May 11, 2011 3:26 PM
@MerariSchroeder

24Mbps ADSL2 is only available to a fraction of the population.

If your going to not talk about the people who can't get ADSL2 then why not use one of the fiber links avaliable now?

grump3
May 11, 2011 4:46 PM
Yeah, let's forget about the NBN, abandon all the country towns & all move back into our capital Cities where it's profitable for "Private Enterprise" to service our requirements. There we can all be sure of a reliable Internet connection to then source all of our produce from overseas.
HubertCumberdale
May 11, 2011 4:57 PM
sydneyla wrote:
spend untold billions at this time?

untold billions? great another conspiracy theorist.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
I am not expecting there to be any significant benefits from the NBN.

Of course not...

MerariSchroeder wrote:
There is no wealth generated from downloading a YouTube video faster.

When you equate all the internet is to Youtube videos.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
but there is no demand

LOL

MerariSchroeder wrote:
and there is certainly no economical justification for big government cash splashes.

Do you consider the amount the amount the government will spend on the NBN over the course of it's construction to be a large amount of money for a country like Australia?

MerariSchroeder wrote:
Leave it to the private market, they've successfully gone from 28.8 kbps (1994) to a max of 24Mbps (2003) in less than 10 years, that's a 833x improvement in over 9 years!

I'd consider that a dismal failure. The private market has failed.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
1994 is when 28.8kbps was available, but did everyone use it? 2003 is when ADSL2+ was available but did companies rush out to invest in new infrastructure? No! They waited for demand.

You're joking right?

MerariSchroeder wrote:
The technologies for our future speed growth have been around for some time now. It's not the technology that holds us back it's demand.

Actually it is technology holding us back. People are limited by what they can get, you think if I had a choice I'd be limiting my download speed to ~15mbps? no that is dictated by how far I am from the exchange and upload speeds do you think if I had a choice I'd be limiting that to less than 1mbps?

MerariSchroeder wrote:
Technologies such as LTE, HFC, VDSL2+ stand ready to carry us forward.

LOL

MerariSchroeder wrote:
The NBN was a poorly contrived snap decision

Wrong, a poorly contrived snap decision would be the pathetic patchwork network of wireless and fttn the coalition had planned. When the NBN is complete it will be far more functional, reliable and a breath of fresh air compared to what we have now.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
Now instead we are slated to have an overpriced solution which will tax the big cities.

That's terrible! Wow, you convinced me, scrap the NBN!
MerariSchroeder
May 11, 2011 5:27 PM
TReichle wrote:

24Mbps ADSL2 is only available to a fraction of the population.

If your going to not talk about the people who can't get ADSL2 then why not use one of the fiber links avaliable now?


I threw in ADSL2+ among a mix of other technologies. VDSL, with fibre to the node can achieve 100Mbps, DOCSIS 3.0 goes beyound 300Mbps, LTE-A will enable peak theoretical speeds of 1Gbps (perhaps per cell segment).

grump3 wrote:

Yeah, let's forget about the NBN, abandon all the country towns & all move back into our capital Cities where it's profitable for "Private Enterprise" to service our requirements


You miss the point, rural country towns won't be getting FTTH - they'll be getting 12Mbps wireless and satellite. If that's what they need then give them that and keep the bill down (in the order of $1bn) and leave the rest to progress, perhaps with part government investment?

The way the private markets work is they make profit which runs the economy (aka. what goes around comes around). And private markets start in the most lucrative places. They iron out the bugs in regions where they're still making a profit - it makes sense. Then it rolls out from there. Take Telstra's mobile network for instance, they started HSPDA support in major cities and then eventually rolled it out to country towns. Your comment on everyone moving to big cities is hyperbole.

HumertCumberdale wrote:

Actually it is technology holding us back. People are limited by what they can get, you think if I had a choice I'd be limiting my download speed to ~15mbps?


Speed is such a subjective and relative concept for the Internet. Why do you want more than 15mbps? I know that if faster speeds were available and were cheaper I would have no problems in subscribing. But "faster" AND "cheaper" and going to happen at the same time with the NBN plan.

HumertCumberdale wrote:

I'd consider that a dismal failure. The private market has failed.


You consider an 833x improvement a failure? How ridiculous!

HumertCumberdale wrote:

When you equate all the internet is to Youtube videos.


Give me an example of an application which needs 25Mbps (the speed that most people will subscribe to when the NBN comes out - and the cheapest option). BTW, Video on Demand doesn't need 25Mbps, and economic return cannot be gained from HD video over the internet, a video conference in SD is enough. (Bigger businesses with multiple employees might need more bandwidth so they can have multiple SD video conferences simultaneously - and no: you can only have occupants and one external staff legally working from your home). (I hope I've covered enough bases to get a reasonable reply)
anonymous
May 11, 2011 5:34 PM

@Hubert, ol' Merari must be so relieved that you have finally agreed with him (?).

After all, he's been slaving over his hot anti-NBN websites for so long now, and it must be discouraging that his best endeavours have been so comprehensively rubbished by everybody (except his brothers-in-FUD lala, rossy and deteego, etc).
HubertCumberdale
May 11, 2011 6:01 PM
MerariSchroeder wrote:
Speed is such a subjective and relative concept for the Internet.

It's not "subjective and relative" it's just "relative" but that's not even the point...

MerariSchroeder wrote:
Why do you want more than 15mbps?

What a ridiculous question, for a start first you say "they've successfully gone from 28.8 kbps (1994) to a max of 24Mbps (2003) in less than 10 years" and then question me when I want that 24mbps or more 8 years later??? Secondly I notice you chose to ask me about download speed rather than the upload speeds? why is that? I've gone on record here and on other website many MANY times saying that upload speeds are far more important so why did you not ask the question why do I need more than 1mbps?


MerariSchroeder wrote:
You consider an 833x improvement a failure? How ridiculous!

It's not ridiculous at all, it is now 2011. You ever looked at a calender? You think these speeds are acceptable in 2011? You must have really low standards...

MerariSchroeder wrote:
Give me an example of an application which needs 25Mbps

Sure, 25mbps UPLOAD would be great for UPLOADING large files and yes it is needed time is money.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
BTW, Video on Demand doesn't need 25Mbps

Stating the obvious?

MerariSchroeder wrote:
and economic return cannot be gained from HD video over the internet a video conference in SD is enough.

What? enough for who? Newsflash: video resolutions are on the rise, in the next 10-15 years even HD wont be enough, 4k is next. Even your precious Youtube agree.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
Bigger businesses with multiple employees might need more bandwidth so they can have multiple SD video conferences simultaneously

I'm sorry, you seem to think this is all about "businesses" Newsflash: households usually have more than one computer these days, do you expect them to share a connection with less than 1mbps upload?
Ace
May 12, 2011 12:13 AM
Some people have an astonishing lack of vision/foresight.

@MS, you point out that people have been using the absolute forefront of technology available as soon as it becomes available. Yet for some reason in almost the same breath, you say that is no longer the case - seemingly because you are happy with the performance of youTube on your PC. You were also very proud of the 833x increase in speed over 9 years (from 1994), but then go on to say what an absurd waste it is to increase broadband speed by 4x over the next 10 years. In short, you appear to understand the past, but not the future.

Anyway, I think the article is jumping the gun a little seeing as the strategy report is not out yet. It may well be premature to announce any NBN related investments given that it has a number of years of rollout to occur before the benefits are of sufficient scale to warrant significant investment.
sydneyla
May 12, 2011 7:59 AM
I am somewhat surprised that HubertCumberdale took offence at my "spend untold billions" statement.

Considering the past performances of large contract builds, the Sydney Opera House would be an example (from 9 million to actual 100 million) why would anyone think that the NBN roll-out would not escalate in cost.

Therefore the NBN cost is UNTOLD BILLIONS.
rokotov
May 12, 2011 8:08 AM
The lack of real application examples from the NBN cronies like HubertCumberdale is another reason why Australians will regret this NBN scam just like "educational revolution", isolation scam, MYKI or any other overblown project started by Labors on any level with the only reason - to give their mates some lucrative contract.
Rossyduck
May 12, 2011 8:31 AM
People are not getting it - please look at Quiglies comments to the senate. The NBN is not going beyond the urban fringe - small coutry towns have to pay to get it. It is only the larger cities that are getting the NBN. Copper will be withdrawn from the country towns and replaced with wireless, a great interim solution but requiring a forklift upgrade.

Our company and others would happily provide service to country towns if there was competitive backhaul, if the recent changes to legislation enabling NBN Co to provide the NBN and the DBCDE lobbying with the states was not just for the exclusive benefit of NBN Co. Without this support even NBN Co cannot provide.
yum-e
May 12, 2011 3:10 PM
hmmm, an application for the NBN? Remote 3d surgery using a specialist in Sydney performed on someone in a large regional centre (one with ftth)? To much for your pathetic brains to handle you dumb fuds.
HubertCumberdale
May 12, 2011 3:10 PM
sydneyla wrote:
I am somewhat surprised that HubertCumberdale took offence at my "spend untold billions" statement.

I took no offence, I was just highlighting your own idiocy.

sydneyla wrote:
Therefore the NBN cost is UNTOLD BILLIONS.

Oh wait, you seem to be doing a fine job of that yourself, carry on.

rokotov wrote:
The lack of real application examples from the NBN cronies like HubertCumberdale is another reason why Australians will regret this NBN scam just like blah blah blah.

Just because you cant look beyond your own nose doesn’t mean there is a "lack of real application examples" You are using the internet now but I'm guessing in the 90’s you would have been one of those people who would have said "wots the internet?" and "why would I need that?" btw the only scam going on is from the liberal party who seriously think their patchwork network plan would have been a solution to the ever growing bandwidth needs.


Rossyduck wrote:
People are not getting it - please look at Quiglies comments to the senate. The NBN is not going beyond the urban fringe - small coutry towns have to pay to get it. It is only the larger cities that are getting the NBN.

We get it. perhaps you don’t get that we "get it" this has been known for some time and is no secret but you know what I find funny is that people like you seem to think because the 7% of households wont get fibre then the NBN is doomed.

Rossyduck wrote:
Copper will be withdrawn from the country towns and replaced with wireless.

Proof? Source for this claim? I have seen nothing to suggest this will happen so I'll just have to assume you are making this one up for now.

Rossyduck wrote:
Our company and others would happily provide service to country towns if there was competitive backhaul

Yeah it's always someone else’s fault isn’t it? lol
Ace
May 12, 2011 4:42 PM
Ah @HC, obviously @sydneyla is joking. I'm sure I've seen that line of thought in a Monty Python sketch.
anonymous
May 12, 2011 6:20 PM

@Ace, but, but, Monty Python at least had the redeeming feature of being funny!!
meski
May 12, 2011 7:46 PM
SO many sock-puppets for Malcolm Turnbull...
cjc1959au
May 13, 2011 8:58 AM
You people really just don't get it. And I bet you all have at least ADSL1 (8mbps) or ADSL 2+/Cable available where you live.

I live less than 10km from the centre of Melbourne, and in the 21st century, in a supposed 1st world country, I can't even get a decent ADSL internet connection, let alone ADSL2+ or Cable.

"The private market has failed" and will never replace something that should be infrastructure!
umbria
May 13, 2011 11:42 AM
Maitland is NSW's fourth-largest city (61,431 in 2007), but living 1km from its main street I can scarcely coax more than 2 Mbps from ADSL2+, because the exchange is in East Maitland. Copper was all the market delivered. It's time for universal fibre, and only the government can ever deliver it to practically everyone.

And a big LOL for the FUD-filled comic relief to MS, Sydney, Rossyduck, with greetings to our absent friend deteego.
MerariSchroeder
May 13, 2011 2:20 PM
@yum-e "hmmm, an application for the NBN? Remote 3d surgery using a specialist in Sydney performed on someone in a large regional centre (one with ftth)? To much for your pathetic brains to handle you dumb fuds."

Why do you need Fibre to "Homes" for that? Hospitals and many government agencies already have Fibre. If that's the only futuristic application then go for it, roll out fibre backhaul to remote places so there's a reliable eSurgery link. eSurgery by the way is merely an HD video stream (possibly 3D, but that effect might be distracting unless it's configured to be unnoticeable) - so 50Mbps? Why are so many harping on about Fibre being able to go up to Terabits to the home? What's the next "content stream" that will require such speeds to "homes"? I'm in favour to such speeds to premises with hundreds of people co-located.

@cjc1959au "The private market has failed and will never replace something that should be infrastructure!"

Do you realise that as soon as fibre backhaul was provided to some town in between Perth and Adelaide, ADSL2+ ISPs instantly moved in? Backhaul and internernational capacity is the lowest hanging fruit. I sit at 10Mbps at home but don't complain about the private market failing, merely because people can subscribe to 100Mbps HFC in Melbourne. There will always be whingers who want what someone else has, if they're patient it'll come. LTE is one technology that can change it all, surely complimented by measured and equitable progress in fixed line - even FTTH from positive cashflow.
HubertCumberdale
May 13, 2011 4:09 PM
yum-e wrote:
hmmm, an application for the NBN? Remote 3d surgery using a specialist in Sydney performed on someone in a large regional centre (one with ftth)? To much for your pathetic brains to handle you dumb fuds.
MerariSchroeder wrote:
Why do you need Fibre to "Homes" for that?

Admit it yum-e you saw this reply coming a mile away too. lol of course FTTH isn't needed for it but this application is not likely to happen without home users. Do the math.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
eSurgery by the way is merely an HD video stream (possibly 3D, but that effect might be distracting unless it's configured to be unnoticeable) - so 50Mbps?

Not that I care much for remote surgery applications (I am a home and business user after all) but you really dont know what remote surgery is do you? To suggest it is "merely an HD video stream" is laughable. There is more to it than that.

MerariSchroeder
May 16, 2011 3:41 PM
@HubertCumberdale "To suggest it is "merely an HD video stream" is laughable. There is more to it than that."

That's all that was relevant. All other data streams would be irrelevantly small. All movements by the surgeon would be vector information (move scalpel along x-axis .1mm). If there were 10 thousand samples per second of the surgeons hands and all 3D absolute positions with nanometre accuracy across a 2 metre human body you would require 3x32 bit decimal numbers would be overkill for resolution, so 12 bytes per sample x 10 thousand = .12 Mbps

I think we're a very long way from eSurgery. There's simply no reliable way for the tactile feedback that a Surgeon would require - there's no substitute for being there, and certainly in the eyes of medical insurance and those going under the knife. Perhaps a general surgeon operating in person with instruction from a specialist....

Edited by merarischroeder: 16/5/2011 03:50:18 PM
HubertCumberdale
May 16, 2011 5:24 PM
MerariSchroeder wrote:
That's all that was relevant.

No. What is relevant is latency and regardless of how small any other critical data is that is important.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
All other data streams would be irrelevantly small. All movements by the surgeon would be vector information (move scalpel along x-axis .1mm). If there were 10 thousand samples per second of the surgeons hands and all 3D absolute positions with nanometre accuracy across a 2 metre human body you would require 3x32 bit decimal numbers would be overkill for resolution, so 12 bytes per sample x 10 thousand = .12 Mbps

Congratulations you've just done a few arbitrary calculations and come to the conclusion that ADSL2+ or wireless could handle the job, you know what in theory even dial-up could do it. Yes that is a great idea and let's forget about upgrading our communications infrastructure because you have it all figured out...

MerariSchroeder wrote:
I think we're a very long way from eSurgery.

Thanks for stating the obvious but newflash: it's going to be even longer if we do not replace the copper with fibre.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
There's simply no reliable way for the tactile feedback that a Surgeon would require

You dont know what you are talking about here, I suggest you do a bit of research.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
there's no substitute for being there

States the obvious YET again...

MerariSchroeder wrote:
and certainly in the eyes of medical insurance and those going under the knife.

So the big question is in the event that the surgeon cannot be "there" would YOU prefer a remote surgeon working on YOU with a stable fibre connection, ADSL2+, wireless or dial-up?



Ice
May 17, 2011 1:17 PM
MerariSchroeder wrote:
and certainly in the eyes of medical insurance and those going under the knife.

So the big question is in the event that the surgeon cannot be "there" would YOU prefer a remote surgeon working on YOU with a stable fibre connection, ADSL2+, wireless or dial-up?


Merari would choose wireless because of all the comments he has made about it being the best solution for all
adavion
May 17, 2011 2:00 PM
Maybe if we all [pretended to] agree with Merari, he would just go away... :(

Wondering if you'd consider running for Liberal preselection? You'd be perfect for Bradfield or Wentworth or maybe even Warringah!

Or maybe even join up with Bob Katter to revive the Protectionist Party.
CabbagePatchKid
May 17, 2011 3:34 PM
people.....forget the "need" or "merits" of the NBN and ask yourselves a few simple questions - if we can't get ubiquitous mobile phone coverage, and we can't roll out ADSL to complete metro areas (@cjc1959au), what makes you think we are going to get wholesale NBN coverage? You people are living in a dream world. ....Secondly, this government screwed up pink bats, solar rebates, school building rorts, lied about the carbon tax, etc.....you really think they are competent enough to actually complete the NBN rollout, let alone on budget. This is a a government that couldn't organise a chook raffle, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just kidding themselves.
umbria
May 17, 2011 4:19 PM
CabbagePatchKid, NBNCo has shown time and again the fiscal restraint and uncompromising technical decision-making that was often lacking from the Rudd-Gillard programs you list. Every choice they make shows this, especially cancelling a construction tender that would have blown out in cost, and staying the course on the fine detail with Telstra's agreement even if it takes a few months. Rush jobs and half-baked outcomes are not on their agenda.

And you absolutely nailed the reason for a public-built NBN, which is that private industry had fifteen years and failed to deliver even ubiquitous mobile phone coverage and ADSL in capital cities, let alone country towns.
umbria
May 17, 2011 4:22 PM
MS, look up Lindbergh Operation if you want to know about remote surgery, though I expect you are just being consistent in saying it doesn't exist. It seems that robotic surgery is becoming common, and patients in isolated hospitals (always with an anesthesiologist and surgeon on hand) can benefit from this remotely if a specialist is able to control it over fibre.

Surely the serious question is not whether you "want to have" remote surgery, but whether current deaths and complications can be prevented by making it available.

But the big untapped medical two-way video market is surgery-to-home, enabling doctor's rounds and minor checkups for elderly and chronic patients without all the travel and tying up so many hospital beds and nursing staff.
Ace
May 17, 2011 5:04 PM
While the whole carbon tax thing is a screw up provided by Labor @Cabbage, I'd be interested what exactly was a screw up with the other items you mention. As far as I can tell, the other programs have been very successful - in some cases too successful.
HubertCumberdale
May 17, 2011 5:22 PM
MerariSchroeder wrote:
eSurgery by the way is merely an HD video stream (possibly 3D, but that effect might be distracting unless it's configured to be unnoticeable) - so 50Mbps?

Another thing I want to point out is your calculations on this 50Mbps figure, even if it is not 3D for surgery there may be A) more than one camera, scope whatever. B) the frame rate and/or resolutions may be higher see here: http://thefutureofthings.com/news/10039/ultra-high-resolution-video-used-in-surgery.html they used a Red One camera for this and that is 4k, C) It's possible in these applications that high compression may be undesirable for surgeons so it may be lower resulting in more data.

CabbagePatchKid wrote:
people.....forget the "need" or "merits" of the NBN and ask yourselves a few simple questions - if we can't get ubiquitous mobile phone coverage, and we can't roll out ADSL to complete metro areas (@cjc1959au), what makes you think we are going to get wholesale NBN coverage? You people are living in a dream world. ....Secondly, this government screwed up pink bats, solar rebates, school building rorts, lied about the carbon tax, etc.....you really think they are competent enough to actually complete the NBN rollout, let alone on budget. This is a a government that couldn't organise a chook raffle, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just kidding themselves.

Thanks for providing absolutely nothing new to this discussion, please go back to posting ill-informed drivel on The Australian (you missed the white elephants btw)
CabbagePatchKid
May 17, 2011 9:41 PM
@hubert - You can't defend your position with factual arguments so you resort to personal commentary....so since you've started it.....the word "moron" and "bonehead" come to mind, but that would insult the morons and boneheads out there.
HubertCumberdale
May 17, 2011 10:27 PM
CabbagePatchKid wrote:
@hubert - You can't defend your position with factual arguments so you resort to personal commentary....so since you've started it.....the word "moron" and "bonehead" come to mind, but that would insult the morons and boneheads out there.

Everyone here myself and the people I disagree with have used factual arguments (or at least tried to) your post had none of that, just the same boring, unoriginal non-facts we've heard a thousand times already and now you all you have is this as a last resort? hey I dont mind, I actually welcome this sort of thing as I'd like everyone to know just what sort of people are against the NBN. Thanks.
MerariSchroeder
May 18, 2011 9:19 AM
Still going on about eSurgery? You're all making yourselves look ignorant. Give me a compelling application which demands spending billions on a FTT "Home" network. Perhaps if you should start your answer by including the question, you won't invent some Frankenstein idea: "My compelling application which demands spending billions on a FTT 'HOME' network is "

HubertCumberdale wrote:

So the big question is in the event that the surgeon cannot be "there" would YOU prefer a remote surgeon working on YOU with a stable fibre connection, ADSL2+, wireless or dial-up?

Ice wrote:

Merari would choose wireless because of all the comments he has made about it being the best solution for all


What sort of question is that? They already have fibre between most health organisations. Wireless will certainly be capable of reliable, you-can-count-on-it communication in the coming years, don't draw comparisons to current mobile internet. Wireless is one technology for many alternative plans (NBNOptions.org) . I've never ruled out any technology, just the current unaffordable plan.

Umbria wrote:

NBNCo has shown time and again the fiscal restraint and uncompromising technical decision-making


Sounds to me like an organisation skating on thin ice.

RE: Lindbergh_Operation
Thanks for the reference. I stand corrected on feasibility of eSurgery. Note the "Home" in quotes in my first paragraph above in this reply.

Umbria wrote:

But the big untapped medical two-way video market is surgery-to-home, enabling doctor's rounds and minor checkups for elderly and chronic patients without all the travel and tying up so many hospital beds and nursing staff.


Still sticking to the medical theme? I like the "home" touch. Let's forget you included "surgery-to-home". 1) We can already achieve two-way video today 2) most remote places don't have good enough internet 3) so fix the regional! 4) The most remote are only promised satellite under the current plan.

Ace wrote:

the other programs have been very successful - in some cases too successful.


Your skill of persuasion escapes me.

HubertCumberdale wrote:

A) more than one camera, scope whatever. B) the frame rate and/or resolutions may be higher see


I just wanted to commend you on a good constructive contribution to this debate. eSurgery will likely need lots of bandwidth. But I once again point out that most health organisations already have fibre, need more speed? upgrade the equipment at each end.

My compelling application which demands spending billions on a FTT 'HOME' network is...
Mark D
May 18, 2011 11:58 AM
If you want a practical application for high speed home networks consider the following.

1. Home Security - particularly video bandwidth (ADSL 2+ 800kb/s upload and less does not come close)

2. High Definition Video communication (starts @ 4MB/s)

3. Any Cloud application - just look at Google's new OS, operates entirely from "the cloud".

More so my point is any argument against advancement is just as ridiculous as any one of the well-known statements "we will never use more than XX of XX” technology statements throughout computer history. One particularly sticks in my mind “we will never fill a 20MB Hard drive”

@MerariSchroeder "most health organisations already have fibre"

Wrong, they actually don't (talking from experience in a town of over 100,000). Most large health organisations do. Want practical examples? Nearly every GP clinic and nearly every Pathology lab. Most of these “health organisations” are simply small business and cannot afford to lash out for high speed fibre connections. Need I go on? The benefit of fitting out both of these small businesses with high speed fibre answers itself.
HubertCumberdale
May 18, 2011 12:39 PM
MerariSchroeder wrote:
Still going on about eSurgery? You're all making yourselves look ignorant.

Actually you are making yourself look ignorant as I said earlier I dont care much for remote surgery applications but you were the one that came up with the few arbitrary numbers, not me.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
Give me a compelling application which demands spending billions on a FTT "Home" network.

I think I actually started a topic on this a few months ago but when you word it like that it could be argued that there is nothing. I wont play your game, sorry. What I will say though is that home users are the bulk of the users and will be the ones that will eventually cover the cost of the build so I really dont see what the problem is. The money for the hospital connections and/or upgrades has to come from somewhere.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
What sort of question is that?

A fair one considering your history.

MerariSchroeder wrote:
just the current unaffordable plan.

Which one is unaffordable?

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