Turnbull "naive" on NBN's HD future: Hackett

Dec 21, 2010 2:27 PM
Filed under Telco/ISP

Opposition spokesman's faith in ADSL2+ is "badly researched", says Internode.

The federal Opposition needs to go back to school to brush up on broadband network topologies, a leading ISP said today.

Internode managing director Simon Hackett said the Federal Opposition's faith in ADSL2+ to deliver next-generation broadband streams was "naive" and "badly researched".

He was responding to Opposition communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull's claims yesterday that most of the high-bandwidth applications mentioned in the NBN business plan such as Fetch TV from Internode and iiNet were broadband misers.

"The FetchTV IP television service, and others like it, can provide a single TV screen with standard-definition video services over a subset of ADSL2+ broadband services - as long as IP multicast is available," Hackett said.

And those very close to an exchange could get HD TV or multiple streams, but the number of houses with access fell the farther they were from the exchange, he said.

"That's because ADSL2+ delivers speeds which vary depending on how far away from a legacy Telstra exchange you happen to live," he said.

Hackett said the current regime lacked "equity of access" and "guaranteed high-speeds" for all Australians, "not just those who happen to live close enough to a legacy copper line connected exchange to be able to use it".

The solution was IP multicast that efficiently sent such video streamswhi to a big number of interested receivers without excess load on the network.

"The NBN, incorporating IP multicast as a part of the design, will let every Australian with a fibre connection experience the future IPTV services from Fetch that we plan to launch in the coming years - not just the initial, entry services we are launching in the first instance over ADSL2+," he said.

"The future, high-definition, multi-screen, on-demand, interactive future of entertainment that we will offer Australians in the coming years - including high definition two-way video calls from your lounge room - all depend on the NBN to be possible and will not happen without it."

Otherwise Australians were "doomed" to lag citizens in other countries and the "NBN is an absolute prerequisite" to access such advanced services, he said.

Turnbull "naive" on NBN's HD future: Hackett

19 comments in this discussion

"Actually having done a fibre course and thinking about the numbers no doubt all been said on here and WP also. But think about how many households in every block suburb and state how ever many ..."

By TheAdvisor

Tags

nbn, turnbull, hackett, internode, multicast, broadband, fetch

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Comments: 19

Ace Dec 21, 2010 1:52 PM	I think Mr Hackett needs to remember that not everything a Liberal says is "the gospel truth" when in the midst of "a heated discussion". Not to worry, I'm sure Malcolm is simply being "a fair dinkum, authentic and genuine Australian".
HubertCumberdale Dec 21, 2010 2:13 PM	Naive is a polite way of saying it, I just would have called him retarded. I guess Mr Hackett has to be more diplomatic though.
nbsydney Dec 21, 2010 3:02 PM	I would not expect a different response to the NBN from someone with vested interests on it. The real point is not if Australia needs a national broadband network, but if it is wise to spend billions of dollars in an infrastructure project which the private sector has not shown any interest in investing so far. Would these billion of dollars be better used in other social services and infrastructure?
Damien Dec 21, 2010 4:54 PM	we need fibre, high speed internet and less retards giving their opinions (and we could do without Conroy). Who knows, after all the fibre is in place we could get rid of that copper that's corroding in the ground and take it to the recyclers. Im in the private sector and I want it!! Less surveys and other time/money wasting efforts and just do it!!
umbria Dec 21, 2010 5:02 PM	@nbsydney, it is precisely BECAUSE fifteen years of competition failed utterly to deliver any broadband to 40% of Australians that the investment vehicle has to be managed by government. From 2015 we will witness undignified elbowing between investors trying to secure a bigger piece of a very lucrative pie. In fact, as economist Alan Kohler opined today on Business Spectator, the extreme conservatism of its demand forecasts means that the NBN will certainly turn a profit earlier than the timeline in its Business Plan. Finally, it is obvious that many households will replace their current cable TV to "Foxtel Fibre" and similar IPTV services, thereby upsizing their NBN service and delivering quicker wholesale growth to NBNCo. It is quite conceivable that this increased cashflow could reduce the taxpayer contribution needed for the ten-year build.
frogg11 Dec 21, 2010 8:14 PM	It seems Liberal Party Broadband policy is based on Malcolm Turnbull's out-of-date knowledge from his Ozemail dialup days. Get with it Malcolm, the world has moved on since then.
addinall Dec 21, 2010 9:22 PM	Perhaps Mr. Hackett would like to explore the world of VDSL, 4G wireless, increase the range of HFC as an alternative to wasting bags of money providing a service (maybe in a decade) that really no-one wants. @umbria the 40% statistic you use is bogus. Drag yourself away from movies, YouTube and "Shoot the Alien" for but a moment and have a peek at the ABS. People went to a LOT of trouble to collect, collate and report this data for FREE. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/8153.0/ http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Chapter10002008 So let's have a look at the unfortunate 40% “According to the 2005-06 Household Use of Information Technology survey, 40% of Australian households did not have access to the Internet. The main reasons Australian households did not have Internet access at home were that the people within the household had no use for the Internet at home (24%), or had a lack of interest in the Internet (23%). Around one-fifth (22%) of households in the bottom two equivalised (that is, adjusted to take account of differing household size and composition) income quintiles stated high cost as the main reason for not having Internet access.” This is important enough to repeat. *** The main reasons Australian households did not have Internet access at home were that the people within the household had no use for the Internet at home (24%), or had a lack of interest in the Internet (23%). **** That is, 47% of the 40% of Australians not connected AT ALL, simply DO NOT WANT TO BE. or; *** one-fifth (22%) of households in the bottom two equivalised (that is, adjusted to take account of differing household size and composition) income quintiles stated high cost as the main reason for not having Internet access. ****** Can’t afford it. Now. So far we have seen fixed line subscriptions slowing, as the market has saturated, Wireless continuing to experience double digit growth. Putting a FTTH NBN in around the country is unlikely to sway those who have little or no interest in the internet, and for the fiscally challenged, it will broaden the digital divide. @frogg11 MT is hardly out-of-date. He understands technology, moreso, good business practice. I used to make serial cards, code in C, and remember when TCP/IP was less than popular. I still program every day, use the net every day, support my customers, chase new business, deliver product, read news, do my banking, shop for stuff, download white papers, new tools, all on a 1.5 Mbps link that costs me $10 per month. I can afford to purchase any link I want. I don't want to pay more than $10 a month for a fixed line. 4G wireless is becoming available so if it became a choice between upgrading my mobile account, or throwing the money at FTTH, the wireless wins as a set of convenient tools. The NBN document points out that less than 10% of the population are going to want 100 Mps, so why are we building it? Also that the majority of Australians are going to be content with a 12/1 subscription. That can easily be managed using existing topologies. So, 1. Many Australians DO NOT WANT A NET CONNECTION. 2. Many CAN'T AFFORD ONE. 3. Most DO NOT WANT A SUPER HIGH SPEED NET. $50 BILLION dollars is FAR to much to spend on an alternative way of watching television.
singo79 Dec 21, 2010 9:27 PM	@umbria +1 I couldn't have said it any better. Only the truly ignorant believe that we don't need the NBN. Either that or they live within 1500m of a Telstra exchange or they are on HFC/Fibre already. The future of the Internet is multiple devices and multiple people using one internet connection at the same time. In my household I have four people battling for internet bandwidth, which sadly maxes out at 4Mbps. Simon is a true advocate for advancing broadband services and infrastructure in Australia. nbsydney, if you had half an idea what you were talking about you would know that Simon, Agile and Internode were the first collaborators to roll out ADSL2+ broadband to the Australian public. In fact Telstra and Optus failed to catch up for some 12+ months (in Optus' case) and longer for Telstra. So for you (nbsydney) to claim that Simon has a vested interest, you are probably right to some degree, as Simon is no different to the rest of us in that we realise that the broadband infrastructure in this country is pathetic and competition has done absolutely nothing to drive innovation and advancement, apart from the likes of Internode and their ADSL2+ investment. All I can say is thank god the Labor Party got in to power and are rolling out the most sensible advancement in technology. And given that the network will be future-proof up to 1Gbps it absolutely decimates the pathetic old copper network and the proposed Coalition's Broadband plan.
singo79 Dec 21, 2010 9:49 PM	@addinall "The NBN document points out that less than 10% of the population are going to want 100 Mps, so why are we building it?" One could say the same with roads, schools, hospitals etc. Why pump so much money into certain road infrastructure or the construction of a new school or hospital when only a small percentage will benefit? The advancing of technology is seeing a growth in demand for higher speed connections. Also, the NBN has attracted worldwide attention from businesses looking to upgrade their facilities here or build facilities here in order to take advantage of the NBN for their operations and their customers. Just because a 1.5Mbps link is suitable for you shouldn't mean the rest of Australia should be stuck in the dark ages. Wireless is only good enough as a backup service only, and the only reason why it appears to have become so popular is due to smartphones and to what I believe is the inability of customers to get access to fixed line services. I know from experience where I couldn't get ADSL1 in a new housing estate thanks to Telstra. I have numerous friends that are told that they are too far from an exchange, or the line is incompatible with ADSL technology, therefore they are forced to have costly wireless services just so they can access broadband. Wireless figures are truly overstated in terms of the purpose of use. I have a smartphone with wireless broadband access, I have an iPad with wireless broadband access and my wife has a smartphone with wireless broadband access, but we still have a fixed line service for quality, speed, data limits, latency and cost. Truth be told, there isn't a smartphone on the market that doesn't come with some form of wireless broadband access, therefore the increase in wireless broadband is truly overstated. I enjoy the ease of access to emails, internet banking, Facebook and web browsing whilst on the go, but it is only a temporary fix until I can get home and access my home network and it's reliable fixed benefits. If you don't mind low data limits, congested networks, high latency, unreliable service and expensive plans, then by all means go with a wireless provider. But those of us that enjoy a good reliable cost effective service, we will persevere with ADSL for the time being, until the NBN is up and running.
Ace Dec 21, 2010 10:39 PM	The trouble is @addinall, you spending too much time looking at the past. Also that there is no flat line of 40% - it is ever decreasing, possibly quite substantially since the 2006 stats you quote. You need to think about 10 years from now. The landscape will obviously be quite different.
packet Dec 22, 2010 7:56 AM	The Telsta/Optus HFC networks already provide this service, yet the NBN is structured so that these networks cannot compete with NBN. HFC is a perfect stop-gap technology and would provide faster return for tax payer investment.
advocate Dec 22, 2010 8:43 AM	ISP promotes taxpayer infrastructure build so they can flog product to end users. http://www.internode.on.net/news/2010/12/211.php Totally objective viewpoint of course. :)
addinall Dec 22, 2010 4:37 PM	"The trouble is @addinall, you spending too much time looking at the past." The trouble with you "Ace" is that you open your mouth before engaging a brain. Studying (and being part of) the past, especially in a fast-evolving industry is essential for NOT repeating mistakes throughout time. Software and network engineering is a process that is vulnerable to cost overruns, shifting targets, poor communication, and creeping complexity. Although those who study software engineering aim to mitigate these risks, engineers have not eliminated them completely, sometimes leading to catastrophic failures. Understanding past mistakes is an important part of systems engineering, and software engineering failures such as the Therac-25 are incorporated into engineering course curricula. From Wiki. And from experience, IBM Fusture Systems Architecture. That went well hey? IBM Systems Applications Architecture built on EVERTHING, OS/2, MVS/XA, VMS, TSO, LU6.2/PU2.1, HLAPI, APPC, APPN that was going to change the world in only ten years... How many people remember how to fire a CICS transaction via a TS-Queue over APPC? That didn't quite work either. Australian government has got involved in IT a few times. Who can forget when the decree came down from the ministers that all government UNIX was to be replaced by Windows NT? That lasted for a disasterous three and a bit years. Then GOSIP!!! I STILL have my copies! "GOSIP is not only the first mandated protocol for all government agencies, but it also marks the retirement of Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)." "TCP/IP includes the physical network access layer, the internet protocol layer, the transmission control protocol layer and the applications layer supporting one of three protocols: the File Transfer Protocol (FTP), the Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SM'PP), and Telenet. Standardized GOSIP functionality is replacing the TCP/IP protocol suite." Government mandated networking. Indeed, everything from Applications, operating systems and network protocols. GOSIP spent BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars implementing products that didn't exist, because a few people in politics thought it was a nifty idea, and that they had the required talent to carry it out. So, my career was over, no more UNIX (being the founder and ex-chairman of the QLD AUUG, that was a little sad), no more TCP/IP (bugger, I just spent a decade trying to become an expert), NO MORE SMTP! Arrrgghhhh. That's where I make my living! Well, twenty years later I see a lot of UNIX (Linux), TCP/IP and SMTP around, don't you? "industry experts predict that will become the dominant standard over the next decade." People like Paul B. and the gaggle that inhabit the ACS from living memory. "Like it or not, GOSIP has been mandated by the Federal government. Living in an OS1 world requires training to learn alternative migration strategies of dual protocol stacks and gateways, name and address registration, and certification testing techniques. Over the long-term GOSIP will minimize total investme-ntcosts and reduce conversion costs. This is due to increased competition among product suppliers, effective multi-vendor interoperability, and minimal additional networking related software development. Adoption of GOSIP makes good economic sense throughout extended operational life-cycles." Whoooaaaa! Deja-vu OR WHAT?!!! Now, why were all these MASSIVE FAILURES? 1. The project were two large. 2. They were badly planned with few if any KPIs. 3. None had a fixed budget, rather, "eerrrr, lots". 4. None did risk analysis. 5. They ALL held the belief that God and Government was on their side, and the world would just adapt to the new order of things. 6. They were ALL heavily influenced by political PRESSURE rather than GOOD BUSINESS PRACTICE. 7. The ALL WASTED BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars. "Also that there is no flat line of 40% - it is ever decreasing, possibly quite substantially since the 2006 stats you quote." Then where are the statistics you quote? There is a very good reason the ABS carries out a 'state of the nation' census every few years. So that we can get a data driven model of what our nation, and it's population LOOKS LIKE. It isn't several thousand people just having a good time yanno? "You need to think about 10 years from now." I do, every day. "The landscape will obviously be quite different." Will it? How? More television?
Mordd Dec 22, 2010 8:34 PM	Theres no point trying to debate a zealot like addinall, he won't listen to any side of the argument but his own in the first place, reading his latest post above is enough to make me laugh at how warped his viewpoint is, but I know from experience that zealots only see their narrow view to begin with so trying to point out the wider landscape to them is really just wasting your time.
HubertCumberdale Dec 22, 2010 8:59 PM	I didn't even bother reading it, great big walls of incomprehensible text are too much at this time of the year. Tip for addinall: if you want people to take your arguments seriously copying/pasting large chunks of text wont help.
Ace Dec 22, 2010 11:10 PM	I can see you're not a 'big picture' person @addinall, but never fear, I don't believe most people are. Can't see forest for the trees etc. I guess it can be quite confusing.
peterh_oz Dec 23, 2010 9:25 AM	In 2005/06 my mother was one of the 40%. She had no use for the internet. In 2007 she started asking me to print the info sheets from the ABC Gardening Australia website after each show and post them to her. Then she started "can you see if you can find xyz for me" - a certain wool for her tapestries, for example. In 2008 she said "I think its time I got my own computer". At the time she was paying $100 per month for phone calls and line rental (most calls were STD cos she lives just outside Sydney and all friends and family are in a different STD zone). I bundled AAPT dialup for her for around $10 per month, on a friend's old Windows98 PC. 2 months later she was SO frustrated with it, yet knew that she had a use for it. So she bought her first computer. Never worked in an office, never had one before, I had to show her that the "tail" of the mouse went out the front not the back! (She couldn't work out why the arrow went down when she moved up!). So with this new computer, I bundled a 512/128 ADSL for $35, added in Engin VoIP for $14.95 (after talking her into trying it!) and switching her line rental to $19.95 homeline budget. Total cost $70 per month including calls. So, as I explained to her, she was saving over $30 per month on her old phone bill even if she didn't use the computer! The internet wasn't a bill, she was actually being paid $30 per month to have it! She now skypes, has a webcam to see the grandchild, looks up her own stuff online, even buys stuff (though she sometimes still gets me to use logmein to help her with that!). She even complains that her new 1500/256 speed (we increased it to give her better VoIP) is too slow to watch the Symphony broadcasts on Bigpond.tv. Oh and her bill is still $70 per month for line rental ($21), ADSL at triple the original speed ($38) and calls (around $11) - she now uses her ISP's VoIP rather than Engin. She isn't a big fan of the NBN, but knows that I support it and she can see a rough idea of what its all about. It won't decide her vote (and I have no idea which way she voted - its none of my business) but she can see that it must be an improvement on what she has, and for some of her friends who are still stuck on dialup, and are still paying more than her each month for their communication costs. My point: The 40% was a LONG time ago technologically. Times change. ADSL/Copper doesn't. Get on with building it and make sure Abbott doesn't scrap/hobble it.
TheAdvisor Jan 1, 2011 3:18 AM	You have to laugh :) Happy New Year and the hallabalue begins. Liberals are just to hi tech for me. IPTV streaming = bandwidth mising. Ok Malcolm i'm completely shickered and that still makes no sense. *hiccup one sec icoming sms ooo newsflash the Libs plan to build a rival network powered by clean coal technology and carbon sequestration. Honestly talk about no idea when it comes to streaming technologies far out the average person playing with shoutcast or icecast etc can tell you how taxing on bandwidth ANY form of streaming can be. Especially VOD and IPTV etc etc your talking high bitrate codecs needing appropriate bandwidth. As many allready have pointed out ADSL2+ is great when close but as the distance goes on so does the +. Yet rolling out FTTH i remain extremely skeptical. Reason being track record on govt and $elstra in regards to this matter for years it got shelved now all of a sudden they got reminded of past promises not kept. Now all of a sudden they need high speed internet vrooooom credit to Simon he got ADSL2+ rolled out pronto whilst the others slept idle for years. $elstra couldn't even roll out cable properly across the states neither did optus vision. So i have very little faith in the matter concerned just guessing the figures involved. Notice how we have plans but minimal rollout. Go NBN thanks for getting everyones hopes up for the new year something else for us to waste oddles of money just to have doormat service. How about $elstra and others put they're $ where they're mouth is. We don't want to know about it tills the sods on tap !
TheAdvisor Jan 1, 2011 3:46 AM	Actually having done a fibre course and thinking about the numbers no doubt all been said on here and WP also. But think about how many households in every block suburb and state how ever many users and computers then chuck in any factors i've conveniently forgot (govt s.o.p) times that by how many bandwidth intensive things used eg peer 2 peer the very thing a lot of people love. Becomes the bain of the bandwidth deprived and so it goes on. The logistics seem overwhelming as someone some where pointed out that many people doing that much stuff equals major bandwidth nightmare. Even dear node bless they're hearts well fibres been for the rich and famous. Only new developments are being targeted. I see more progress from people getting fedup setting up a co operative and doing it themselves so far. The other thing being do ISP's want us having speeds like that when technically aherm it may not be in they're best interests. Classic example hotspots. Legality being a whole different issue.