iiTrial: Concerns iiNet could be re-sued even if it wins appeal

 

Judge questions whether Federal Court can resolve copyright stalemate.

One of three judges presiding over the appeal between the film studios and ISP iiNet over alleged copyright infringement on ISP networks has questioned whether a decision by the full bench of the Federal Court will actually solve anything in the war between the two sides.

Justice Arthur Emmett repeated on multiple occasions on day three of the appeal that the Federal Court might not be the answer to the problem of combating alleged copyright infringement on ISP networks.

"You say you don't like the infringement of copyright and that [rights holders] are just throwing rubbish at us [the notices]," Justice Emmett put to iiNet's senior counsel Richard Cobden.

"Is it just a matter of who bears the cost of dealing with all this?

"It seems to be a continuing problem and that whatever we decide in this case isn't going decide what goes on in the future.

"It just seems to me that out there is a commercial solution and there's nothing we [the Federal Court] can do that will ultimately resolve this problem."

How it came about


ISP iiNet was earlier forced to defend a line of argument on what constituted "reasonable steps" for it to take when faced with copyright notices from the film studios, after fears were expressed by Justice Emmett that the case could repeat itself and reduce the "significance" of the current Federal Court appeal.

Cobden was attempting to explain why iiNet did not act on the copyright notices sent by the Australian Federation Against Copyright Theft (AFACT).

"The question is whether iiNet, by reason of receiving notifications and not doing anything, became an authoriser [of that infringement] because it didn't engage in the graduated steps" that the film industry suggested in court, Cobden said.

"They [AFACT] never asked us to take graduated steps [in the notifications]. They just said 'terminate [the account]' and that's unreasonable."

Cobden went through a series of letters between the internet industry and its peak body, the Internet Industry Association (IIA) and rights holders including AFACT sent in 2007 and 2008.

At least one of the letters indicated AFACT was "unaware of any action" iiNet had taken to combat alleged infringement occuring on its network, including the termination of accounts accused of engaging in film piracy. It alleged, however, that iiNet was "well placed" to deal with AFACT's notices.

Cobden argued that it wasn't a "reasonable step" to expect ISPs to "process, match and develop a database and system to respond to notices that AFACT served", nor to terminate account holders accused of infringing copyright.

He said that iiNet wasn't as "well placed" as the film studios alleged because it could not replicate the process used by the studios' investigators DtecNet without "running the real risk of infringement" itself.

iiNet argued in the original case that DtecNet had breached Australian laws when it downloaded copies of films as part of its investigation - a process iiNet could not engage in to 'fact check' the content of the AFACT notices.

Re-starting the legal process

"Where are we going with this?" Justice Arthur Emmett put to Cobden.

"It's going to the demands of what should be done and indicates why it was that the [AFACT] notices were treated the same way as the robot notices," Cobden said.

Justice Emmett put to Cobden that if iiNet was to take victory on the point that AFACT had never outlined a series of reasonable steps that the ISP should take in dealing with its notices, the appeal's significance could be reduced because the film industry could resubmit a fresh batch of infringement claims that included the list of 'graduated steps' - and re-start the legal process over.

Yesterday, Cobden told the court that AFACT's notices were "really no different" to the thousands of robot notices it received from other sources in that there was an "expectation by AFACT and the studios [that] we will do things that are onerous and complicated."

If it was ruled a "reasonable step" for iiNet to action them, Cobden said that the ISP would be obliged to do the same thing for notices from other copyright owners - be they games makers, software distributors, educational bodies or other organisations that Cobden said were also in the practice of sending notices.

"It remains an unreasonable step to expect an ISP in iiNet's position [to act on all these notices] with the expense of doing this and the further complications of [the] system that follows," Cobden said.

"There's a thread running through our submissions that if someone like AFACT suggests we should take reasonable steps, they should at least suggest some particularity [about them].

"Rather than just say we should go about preventing this [alleged infringement] or warning people, they should say 'this is what we had in mind'. It's always been the appellant's case that we had to work out what's reasonable and that we should do it."

The case continues. Readers can register for iTnews' complete coverage.


iiTrial: Concerns iiNet could be re-sued even if it wins appeal
"Digger would be cleetus from the simpsons but one that is addicted to meth and stays up all night injecting meth and trolling."
By Johnny
 
 
 
Comments: 28
sabredog66
Aug 4, 2010 1:17 PM
As always, iiNET is in a situation of "Damned if you do and damned if you don't"

AFACT and their ilk simply want to keep suing selected targets without attempting to take steps commercially to bring their anachronistic distribution and rights model firmly into the digital age.

This is less about protecting intellectual rights and more about protecting commercial profit and studio executive incomes.

I am confident iiNET will win this appeal, but do believe another attempt will be made to force the ISP's to do their dirty work, cutting off users who are ACCUSED of infringement by spurious detection methods. Little wonder the ISP's are resisting.
block
Aug 4, 2010 2:00 PM
I can see a whole new wave of attacks comming. All I need to do to cause mischief is spoof an email to a persons ISP. Send a few of them over a week and I can terminate their account!!! You little ripper.
bjm1702
Aug 4, 2010 2:13 PM
Maybe if AFACT covered both the costs of iiNet having to go through their allegations and implementing a copyright infringement penalty and revenue lost by iiNet due to having to terminate the account of the copyright infringers, maybe iiNet might comply? As I said before iiNet should not be playing cops and robbers for the film industry, who only want to protect their medieval and greedy business model.
DJ
Aug 4, 2010 2:23 PM
How is this going to end in favour of AFACT ?

Even if they manage to get their point across the line and somehow manage to obtain enough consensus from the panel of judges, which then turns to some form of judgement that supports their case, etc.........

In the end, what they are seeking from ISPs is to essentially manage "their" copyright issues, involving a significant undertaking and effort at the ISP's cost.

The result will be that the burden on ISPs to carry out their wishes will become unreasonable, with a voluntary (opt-in) approach for which most ISPs will simply opt out.

AFACT needs to head back to the drawing board and begin working on a concept that addresses the underlying issues surrounding their industry, the cost of products, distribution and technology - just like every other industry affected by the internet.
camerond01
Aug 4, 2010 2:25 PM
Rather than an issue of authorisation, it comes down to loyalty. iiNet has been loyal to its customers by not terminating their accounts based on a notice. AFACT and the interests they represent show extreme disloyalty by suing their customers. Right or wrong, iiNet has done the right thing by the people who support their existence, their customers.
RB
Aug 4, 2010 3:43 PM
So how about this for an idea:

Free-to-air TV works by getting advertisers to pay for slots within a show/movie.
So, studios could get-together and create movies files with ads embedded in them. In fact, if they are smart the ads would be actually viewer-specific.
Then, create a big online movie library where people can download fast and easy.

Why would consumers bother to steal unauthorised copies when they can get the legit one free and easy (and fast).

In fact, ISPs would probably even cache something like this so that it becomes FreeZone (to cite an iiNew term).

Remember ... TV is a large industry that is based solely on this business model. And, the irony is that this same business model currently support BOTH the movie industry and the TV industry.

It won't work they say? Funny, because one of the world's most successful businesses makes the majority of their money from Internet-based advertising ... Google.

AND ... isn't this the ideal platform to offer ad-free movies at a small price?
Champski
Aug 4, 2010 3:52 PM
Sorry about that above. What I was going to say is: We can't do that! It makes too much sense.

(edit @ Champski - got rid of those extra posts...)

Edited by rycrozier: 4/8/2010 04:07:30 PM
Bazwalt
Aug 4, 2010 4:57 PM
@RB- The national (and perhaps international) backhaul capacity would be astronomical for such a thing. that kind of thing is not an easy task. That kinda thing is only in our dreams.
ITrant
Aug 5, 2010 10:45 AM
We've been down this road before. In 2008 the RIAA spent $17M to recover $0.39M. Financial mismanagement seems to be the cause of their woes. A legal system that panders to this nonsense is as obsolete as their business models. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/riaa_reportedly_spent_more_than_17m_in_legal_fees_in_2008
Bourkie
Aug 5, 2010 12:16 PM
Currently AFACT have no legal basis on which to stand.

The case hinges around 'reasonable steps' - which are not defined legally (i.e. in law).

It can ONLY be assumed that 'reasonable steps' applies to the ISP's definition of reasonable steps - and very definitely NOT AFACT's definition(s)!

Forwarding AFACT's allegation notices on to police (as iiNet did, and do) is a perfectly valid 'step'.

AFACT have no legal leg to stand on.
Bourkie
Aug 5, 2010 12:19 PM
If I email iiNet providing data packet contents and respective transaction logs claiming one of their users has violated my copyright of those packets - do you really think they should disconnect that user?!

What a complete joke AFACT is.
Digger11
Aug 5, 2010 2:40 PM
Just to balance off the pro-iiNet posters here with a bit of truth.
Part of iinet's defence was that it could not (as a supposed class leading ISP) develop the technology to notify illegal downloaders of their misdemeanours.

Seriously - and all you all still think iiNet is innocent ????
anonymous
Aug 5, 2010 3:15 PM

Yes, Dig, I think we all do think that, which leaves you applauding yourself with one hand.
:P
Tom
Aug 5, 2010 3:46 PM
Digger, everything is possible, the question is what is the cost? Are you suggesting that iiNet treat AFACT notices differently from other copyright holders? I assume not, and thus your view is that iiNet should instigate a process in which they analyse all copyright claims, filter these based upon their accuracy, and then send notifications to their customer base. To analyse whether these copyright infringement notices are valid is an onerous exercise and one that _could_ be done but for a cost.

I personally like the idea of AFACT paying iiNet to process each notice on a cost+ basis. Perhaps they could subcontract each of the ISPs in Australia to ensure their copyright is not infringed. Then again, perhaps legal action is cheaper?
Digger11
Aug 5, 2010 4:14 PM
Not quite Tommy, I think you've overthought it a bit.

Put simply, what iiNet should have done is exactly what the other reputable ISP's were doing, and advising customers of their download infringements.

All in the Telco Industry knew that iiNet was not doing what they should have been doing.

Why some posters have then decide that iiNet is superb in their pro-pirating stance and is in court "on behalf of all ISP's" is so ludicrous as to be funny.

They put a target on their backs and AFACT has the bow and arrow pointed straight at them.
block
Aug 5, 2010 5:36 PM
Digger - I would love to meet you in real life to see if you match what I imagine. I imagine you would be very similar to Cleetus from the Simpsons.
cjc1959au
Aug 5, 2010 5:39 PM
@Digger11: Why do you not get the fact that they are not "infringements"? They are "alleged infringements" and have not been proven in any court of law.

AFACT are not providing legal documents stating that they have been to a legal court and showed the IP xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx download file abc.zip which was a copy of movie such-and-such.

All AFACT have done is said "we think these people at IP xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx are doing the wrong thing and we want you to terminate their account.

That is an allegation, nothing more. If they are so certain that IP xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx did something wrong, then go to court and LEGALLY apply to have their internet connection terminated. Then, at least, the "alleged criminal" gets a right to see the evidence against them and has a right of reply.

You way totally wipes out the basic premise of the Westminster System which is "innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Not "alleged" but PROVEN in a legal court of law.
rycrozier
Aug 5, 2010 6:59 PM
cjc1959au wrote: @Digger11: Why do you not get the fact that they are not "infringements"?

Please, do we have to go over that again? :)
cjc1959au
Aug 6, 2010 9:09 AM
@rycrozier I guess you don't believe the presumption of innocence is an important tenet on which our society is based.

rycrozier
Aug 6, 2010 11:06 AM
@cjc1959au - I was merely pointing out you had been taken in by a forum troll on a point that has been laboured over by many posters before your time.

Jump to conclusions much?
Digger11
Aug 6, 2010 12:51 PM
o.k. - If we I call them "potential infringements" then we all agree my points are valid ?

BTW, Never seen the Simpsons, but most people think I am the male version of Judge Judy, but a bit more handsome and intelligent.
block
Aug 6, 2010 1:32 PM
So that would make you Judge Joe Brown?
©commentator
Aug 6, 2010 1:54 PM
cjc1959au - The Federal Court found that there were infringements, so they are proven. The only question now is whether iinet is liable for those proven infringements because it authorised them.
Sams
Aug 6, 2010 2:15 PM
"The Federal Court found that there were infringements, so they are proven."

What? Infringement exists, so every alleged infringement presented in the case must be an infringement? That is absurd.


Edited by Sams: 6/8/2010 09:50:18 PM
Jahm Mitt
Aug 7, 2010 9:10 AM
The RIAA and MPAA even scam thir own.

AFACT - they are so crooked even their bogus PR campaign is a lie.

http://torrentfreak.com/tech-news-sites-tout-misleading-bittorrent-piracy-study-100724/ [torrentfreak.com]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100708/02510310122.shtml [techdirt.com]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ct-disney-20100708,0,4051564.story [latimes.com]
netizen
Aug 10, 2010 2:38 AM
A simple solution to the trivial actions of the copyright holders agent, is to once again balance equity in the process and make the actual copyright holders present themselves before the court just like the accused.
Ezy2Confuze
Aug 12, 2010 9:58 AM
Unfortunately I can seee nothing changing until the laws change.

AFACT are the ones sending the notices by law AFACT should prove which end user of iiNet is offending and get a court order after proving them guilty. No if's not buts.

However AFACT knows this is expensive so of course being greedy they want everyone else to do their dirty work and fix things for them.

The only ay things will change is if Governemtents in general, specifically the US Government, tells the movie industry to pull their heads in and offer a decent solution to their customers. After all happy customers = happy stockholders in the form of higher dividends vs. the current way which is unhappy AFACT members suing unhappy customers becasue they cant get decent services from the AFACT members = very happy cashed up lawyers and nothing substantial in he way of financial gains for the AFACT members.
Johnny
Aug 16, 2010 10:14 PM
Digger would be cleetus from the simpsons but one that is addicted to meth and stays up all night injecting meth and trolling.
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