iiNet, Primus split on filter

 

Optus, Telstra keep their heads low.

Primus CEO Ravi Bhatia has made a rare and brave show of support for Senator Conroy's plans to introduce a mandatory ISP-level internet filter, in stark contrast to the position taken by fellow service provider iiNet.

ISP iiNet issued a press release late yesterday to reassure customers and the industry that it does not support Senator Conroy's plans to filter the internet, refuting comments the Senator made in a Sydney Morning Herald article.

Senator Conroy had claimed his policy has been "approved by 85 per cent of Australian internet service providers, who have said they would welcome the filter, including Telstra, Optus, iPrimus and iiNet."

Michael Malone, CEO of iiNet, was outraged.

"Any claim that our participation in that consultation process is support for the Government's policy is an outright lie," he said in a statement.

"The proposed filter is fundamentally flawed, will not achieve its stated purpose and simply will not work. It is fundamentally bad policy. We do not and never have supported such a system."

"No western country operates a mandatory filter like this," Malone said. "This proposal lines Australia up with Burma, Saudi Arabia and China ... [and] is a waste of money that should be instead spent on additional law enforcement and education resources."

iTnews has contacted Optus, Telstra and Primus to seek their position.

In support of the filter, but not censorship

Primus CEO Ravi Bhatia stood behind Senator Conroy's plans to filter, pledging support for a policy he believes to be undersold and misunderstood.

Bhatia said Primus does not support any censorship of free speech or political thought, and is spirited about the role the internet can play in protecting political freedom and democracy.

He also believes that opponents of Conroy's web filtering plan are "well meaning". But he nonetheless asserts that many of them are fogged by "emotional responses" to the filter policy.

Concerns "a future government may misuse the ISP filters and extend the policy to cover freedom of speech or political dissent" were unfounded, he said.

"While this concern is borne out of good intentions, Australia has a vibrant democracy with strong checks and balances and institutions to protect our freedoms," Bhatia said.

"Our exceptionally strong democratic traditions and political-legal systems would countenance any attempts by a future government to use ISP filter to stifle free speech or political rights.

"That said, I understand the Government will be implementing robust processes around determining which content will be blocked. There will be recourse available if someone believes content has been wrongly blocked."

The Primus chief also disagrees with those who oppose the filter plan on the premise that it is technically flawed.

"Sure, some people may wish to get around the filter, and we will deal with that in time," he said. "But I don't believe many Australian families will want to bypass it."

Bhatia said it is also important to note that the filter is "one component of the cyber-safety measures" required to protect Australians from harmful content.

"If a filter helps keep families safe on the internet then I'm not going to object to it," he said. "Should we for example repeal anti-money laundering or drug laws just because they are only partially effective?"

Bhatia asserts that if most Australians were polled specifically around the details of Senator Conroy's filtering plan, there would be "overwhelming support" in relation to content that involves "child porn, rape, bestiality, drug making and training for terrorism et al".

But he does not believe the Government needs to narrow the scope of the filter plan to reach a compromise with dissenting ISP's and civil liberty groups.

"The government needs to present its case much, much better than hitherto," he said.


iiNet, Primus split on filter
"Let's see if Primus can keep their datacentre and networks running long enough to take advantage of the filter. Given the past performance of Primus and Ravi's "we're bulletproof" statement only ..."
By DJ
 
 
 
Comments: 28
BrettWinterford
Jun 1, 2010 5:06 PM
Regardless of your point of view, credit to Ravi Bhatia for at least having the integrity to state his position.

Telstra's response to my question has just come in:

"We are engaged with the Government on the implementation of its policy but there are a number of issues of detail about which we are awaiting further advice and information."
Mordd
Jun 1, 2010 5:54 PM
Thanks for letting us know how out of touch the CEO of iPrimus is, have added them to my list of ISP's never to recommend to family/friends and to specifically recommend against.
Digger11
Jun 1, 2010 6:02 PM
Good on you Ravi -

Your views are in alignment with what most of the community wants - and that is to eliminate the horrible rubbish that is currently readily available on the Internet.

WELL DONE RAVI !

[EDITED FOR PERSONAL ATTACKS]

Edited by brettwinterford: 1/6/2010 08:53:02 PM
deonast
Jun 1, 2010 6:17 PM
Digger well in these forums I'd say you are the one with no friends, lets see how many here agree with you. Seriously why don't you stop the personal attacks on those stating their views and contribute something constructive for once.

As for what the community wants only a referendum (not worded with bias) would be able to decide that, polls are always biased towards the audience they target.
Choofthur
Jun 1, 2010 6:50 PM
Wow. Digger you really do prove the difference between having an strong opinion and just carrying on like a wanker, mate.

Maybe there should be a way to filter out this kind of thing.... :P
funkyg
Jun 1, 2010 8:24 PM
...there would be "overwhelming support" in relation to content that involves "child porn, rape, bestiality, drug making and training for terrorism et al"

Well I would think that would go without saying. However, if you phrase the question differently and say that sites may be filtered out, without even their owners knowing or being able to do anything about it. That would be different! That coupled with the fact that anyone who really wants that type of content will simply proxy anyway, and you have an ineffective plan.

In actual fact there is one group that would be protected and that is the casual browser that chances on something like that, and I guess kids in particular are vulnerable here. However, the argument is that parents should take responsibility here, and there are plenty of tools that are easy to set up to do this. Personally I use OpenDNS to filter and set my router to use openDNS by default. No this isn't fool proof, but its harder to get around than the proposed filter!

What I'm hoping is that an enterprising ISP proxies their services so that a whole ISP is effectively moved out of Australian control. If the government responds by blocking those proxy services, they have over stepped their mandate.

I guess here I should also point out a previous itNews article (link escapes me) that stated some of the other 'objectionable content' like how to commit euthanasia. To me that has already gone too far from stuff that we all agree is abhorrent to something that is really a political matter.
Pilotyoda
Jun 1, 2010 8:45 PM
I won't respond to Digger's ill informed comments.
The horrible stuff Digger complains about is not readily available on the net. It is well hidden from casual view. Children do not stumble across this material. They mus explicitly search for this material and Google search defaults to Moderate safety level, which stops the few results from being seen. Should such sites be found they require registration for access.
Most of it is unavailable to anyone "not in the know", and it is this material that will NOT be stopped by filters. But questioning authority, sites that are pro- or anti- abortion, euthanasia, safe drugs, safe sex, etc should not be filtered. Put an "R" rating, or require proof of age, or whatever; even ignore them; but do not attempt to block them as it wont work and the alternatives are more insidious.

The alcohol prohibition in the US was an abject failure. The countries that ban drugs have high abuse rates, children are still being abused by church ministries.

This stuff from the government doesn't work. So kill it off and spend the money on real policing and a decent NBN
btone
Jun 1, 2010 11:26 PM
Brave? BRAVE? Integrity? INTEGRITY? Oh pleeeease spare me the cringing codswallop. Good ol' Ravi, bravely showing his integrity. Not to mention his technical incompetence, his lack of respect for his customers and his good old fashioned GREED.
Sams
Jun 2, 2010 12:06 AM
When he says: "Sure, some people may wish to get around the filter, and we will deal with that in time," you had better be worried about the future integrity of e-commerce and other secure communications in Australia. What legislation is next - surrendering a copy of your crypto keys to the govmint? Banning SSL? Because there is no other way to crack it open.
cw
Jun 2, 2010 12:14 AM
*** "Sure, some people may wish to get around the filter, and we will deal with that in time," he said. "But I don't believe many Australian families will want to bypass it." ***

Surely Rhavi isn't warning of future scope creep. Scope creep that will address the absurd ease with which the proposed Internet censorship can be bypassed.

He will have to block VPNs, anonymous proxies etc all of which have legitimate and essential use in business and for privacy protection online. Some of these are techniques even published on the government's privacy commissioner's website http://www.privacy.gov.au/topics/technologies/security#6

Mitch
Jun 2, 2010 8:52 AM
Now that Ipriumus has hit a new low he sees grants from the government for sheer profiteering.

Iprimus I won't be recommending you to anyone.
Anonski
Jun 2, 2010 8:55 AM
Ravi Bhatia has been sucking up to Sen Conroy from day one in exchange for NBN advantages. Obvious suck up is obvious.
endintears
Jun 2, 2010 9:04 AM
If Primus thinks the filter is a good idea, why not implement it NOW? They can easily source a similar (or better) list than the one the government proposes.

This would prove its efficacy one way or another. If Primus REALLY believes that this will protect people why wait to protect their customers??
bcmobile
Jun 2, 2010 9:50 AM
One (more) reason not to use Primus.... or any other ISP who is willing to assist with infringing on their customers rights in exchange for political gain.
msvknight
Jun 2, 2010 11:14 AM
Firstly I have to say I am a Telstra employee and these are entirely my own views.

I think Ravi must live in an interesting world. Quotes like "Our exceptionally strong democratic traditions and political-legal systems would countenance any attempts by a future government to use ISP filter to stifle free speech or political rights" are a flip way of removing major arguments.

I guess it comes back to the question: If you don't plan to do something, why do you need the right to do just that?
philhart
Jun 2, 2010 11:40 AM
I think Bhatia of Primus displays an alarming faith in the good intentions of government. Is he ignorant of, or has he forgotten, the Profumo affair, Watergate, the UK Parliamentary Expenses Scandal, and Michael Atkinson?

Or are "endintears" and "bcmobile" closer to the mark?
Billposter
Jun 2, 2010 11:56 AM
The quote "Our exceptionally strong democratic traditions and political-legal systems WOULD countenance any attempts...." says exactly the opposite of what was meant. A little proof reading goes a long way.
Bourkie
Jun 2, 2010 12:05 PM
'Bhatia said "Should we for example repeal anti-money laundering or drug laws just because they are only partially effective?"'


Anyone who uses that argument should be taken out back against the wall...

Why? Because possessing, manufacturing, or distributing illegal material is just that – already 100% illegal.

They’re not proposing to make anything illegal – it already is!

So comparing not wanting this filter to repealing anti-money laundering or drug laws makes absolute no sense at all, and makes those that use such arguments look like the complete fools they are.
anonymous
Jun 2, 2010 5:50 PM

There's nothing "brave" about Bhatia's show of support for Conboy's odious filter.

He apparently figures, on balance, that it is more important to be in the running for some lush govt contracts than to represent the interests of his customers.
Digger11
Jun 3, 2010 9:03 AM
'Bhatia said "Should we for example repeal anti-money laundering or drug laws just because they are only partially effective?"'
One of the best analagies I have read. The minority of anti-filter protestors (there were around 15 of them at the last statewide protest !!!) have no argument agaisnt this.
We are gettign the filter - so the good guys win - say not ot pornography and yes to cleaing up the Internet.
If the local paper printed the filth that is on the Internet then there would be national outrage - but id thsi filty comes electronically via a computer then it is o.k. ????
You pedophiles and terrorists have lost, take you bat and ball, and go home.

BTW - gutsy move Ravi, but just like when Akermanis comes out and tells the truth, you will be persecuted by the noisy minority.
Mitch
Jun 3, 2010 10:29 AM
Anyone thinks that this filter is a good idea and thinks its going to work deserve their internet connections to suffer from reliability problems.

Anyone who believe that the filter will work and has no performance or reliability issues has rocks in their head.
Ice
Jun 3, 2010 10:42 AM
Quote from digger11 "We are getting the filter - so the good guys win - say no to pornography and yes to cleaning up the Internet."

clean up the net but leave the soft porn magazines next to the lollies in all the newsagancies thats sensaible.

The only time I have ever found anything the filter is supposed to filter is if I have specifically looked for them. i have 2 teenage children who use the net all the time . The rules are they are not allowed to wipe histories or log files so I can Check what they have been doing, the kids know what is expected of them and lose internet access and computing rights at home if they are broken.

In my opinion educating parents will be more effective than the filter.
bcmobile
Jun 3, 2010 11:17 AM
@diggger11

threr are so mnay tyops in yrou psotigns taht I cna't udnersatdn you any mmroe.

Take a deep braeth befor eposting.
btone
Jun 3, 2010 1:51 PM
@Digger11:

"just like when Akermanis comes out and tells the truth, you will be persecuted by the noisy minority".

Aker has come out???!!!

Don't drop the soap in the shower then dig! (and I know you have some in that box you keep standing on...)
Digger11
Jun 3, 2010 2:52 PM
@bcmobile - not surprisingly I can understand your post 100% !
I am fortunately a busy person and do not have time for such minor issues such as spell checking - my points are so valuable I should not waste my time spell checking.

@btone , I think that is called a Freudian Slip (in fact when it comes to droppping soap in the shower, I think a Freudian Slip is a Freudian Slip.
capz
Jun 3, 2010 3:33 PM
I will be advising any friends, family or customers to steer clear of Primus. That is for sure.

Why are we implementing this scheme when we are billions of dollars in debt? What a massive waste of time and taxpayers money.

Refused Classification is way to broad of a scope. They will ban some Flash-based web games, harmless fetish sites, mary-jane brownie recipes, anti-abortion websites, websites with crime scene photos. The scope will grow and grow in time, to anything even slightly controversial.

Bottom line is : I don't need you to protect me or my kids Conroy, STOP WASTING TAXPAYERS MONEY!
ITrant
Jun 3, 2010 9:11 PM
The proposed filter does not do what it purports to do. The government is already lying about its function and purpose. There is no trust here.

Australia does not have robust democratic institutions. It is a young liberal democracy, never truly tested by civil war or even a serious protest movement. It has a laid back, head in the sand, not in my backyard population which won't know what it's lost until it's gone. They'll complain about it, but do nothing.

Australia is a fascist's playground, with good weather and enough carcinogenic minerals in the ground and sport to distract the population while everything they have is slowly stolen from them.

By taking a stand, Primus is playing politics with our freedom and will suffer the consequences.
DJ
Jun 3, 2010 9:22 PM
Let's see if Primus can keep their datacentre and networks running long enough to take advantage of the filter.

Given the past performance of Primus and Ravi's "we're bulletproof" statement only to have another outage, perhaps he should have kept quiet on this one instead.

Don't want to lose anymore customers.
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