Day 20: iiNet refuses to play police for film industry

 

iiNet continues closing statements.

ISP iiNet should not have to accept the film industry’s “outsourcing” of rights management or deal with the fallout from passing on infringement notices, the Federal Court heard today.

Continuing his closing statements, iiNet’s lead barrister Richard Cobden argued against what the film industry has portrayed as “reasonable steps” for dealing with copyright infringement, claiming they place an “unreasonable burden” on the ISP.

“We will not take on the rights holders’ outsourcing of their rights enforcement,” Cobden said.

“The rights holders and studios say this [allegedly infringing] activity is incredibly damaging, [that they] are suffering from the effects of online piracy. Presumably they still make some money [from films] but what they say to ISPs is ‘you fix it up for us, but we’re not going to pay a cent’.”

Cobden characterised that response as a “big ask” of iiNet or any ISP.

He said that passing on notices of alleged copyright infringement could burden ISPs with higher levels of “complaints and disputes”.

“If a customer wishes to dispute what they’ve been accused of [in the notice] then the debate would be between AFACT and the customer,” Cobden stated.

“At the moment, the proposal from AFACT is effectively that iiNet pass on this information. The customer can then say; ‘That’s not right. What’s your basis [for the accusation]?’

Cobden told the court that iiNet was not in a position to respond to these types of requests because the “basis” was information not contained in its IT systems.

“It’s nothing like dealing with our own business issues, where a customer might ask ‘what’s the basis’ and we can tell them ‘our records show you haven’t paid your bill’,” Cobden stated.

“There’s no reason we should have the burden of dealing with complaints and disputes [involving AFACT notices] or escalations to the TIO.”

Cobden also said these steps were unreasonable because not every ISP received notifications from AFACT.

“An ISP only becomes liable if AFACT decides to make it liable - until AFACT decides to target it with notifications,” he said.

“It goes to reasonableness - whether it’s reasonable to impose on iiNet that burden.”

Cobden said iiNet chief Michael Malone’s suggestion of the need for a change to the Copyright Act, the introduction of another “legislative instrument” or the formulation of an industry code to deal with copyright infringement was “sensible” - but not “a demonstration of iiNet’s refusal to accept copyright rules.”

Cobden was also highly critical of the alleged “reluctance” of copyright owners to pursue any of the sample of 20 iiNet account holders surfaced in discovery for the purposes of matching against the film industry’s evidence of alleged infringements.

He argued that iiNet’s alleged failure to terminate any of those 20 accounts did not make it “even more culpable” in the case.

“The real question is why the applicants haven’t done a single thing about it or all the other infringements they say occurred in relation to their copyright subject matter,” Cobden put to the court.

The case continues. You can follow the case in-full here. For a background on the case, click here.


Day 20: iiNet refuses to play police for film industry
"@Digger11: "iiNet clearly guilty." WRONG!!!!!! Hahahaha. Suck it."
By marklara
 
 
 
Comments: 24
Bazwalt
Nov 19, 2009 5:24 PM
As it stands, ISPs already deal with outages, upgrades, day to day support and complaints.

Why should an ISP become the watchdog and police their network for copyright material?

The onus should lay directly on the holder of the rights to the copyright material. If they wish to task a company such as AFACT to ensure that their media is properly distributed in a legal manner than that is up to them.

If they have a complaint than they should forward this onto the Federal Police or another government body who can produce evidence of the breach and issue a warrant in order to terminate the internet service.

The onus in that instance would then lay on the ISP to comply with the warrant.

I cannot see how AFACT can honestly justify their expectation of the ISP to explain the basis of the alleged copyright breach to the offending customer.

All the ISP can say is "well, these guys say you downloaded this..and we pretty much have to do what they say :S"

This is how it should be.
Digger11
Nov 19, 2009 5:40 PM
iiNet clearly guilty. They are happy to make money out of customers but don't want to take any responsibility for how their product is used.
Meanwhile, all of the respectable ISP's are trying to tidy up and clamp down on the illegal activity.

Hurry up with the guilty verdict !!!!

They will only get off on some legal technicality so let's hope the guilty get what they deserve.
Thysce
Nov 19, 2009 5:54 PM
Digger11 are you moron? That's like saying the RTA is liable for people who "illegally" drive for whatever reason, but no, that's actually the Police's job to deal directly with the law breaker, not the service provider.
zag
Nov 19, 2009 6:05 PM
iiNet should say in court.

That they should be included in all copyright items and then get a % in royalties for handling copyright issues via it's network.

otherwise it's pointless to be disconnecting anyone.

Though some how I kinda doubt AFACT would want to have that happen, as they are just wanting a way to be a law unto themselves with any worries from the law itself.


Lol, I wonder what you'd do Digger11 if AFACT decided to sue you because a user via your network copied a copyright file/s.

I really wonder if you'll be begging for the AFACT clan as much as you do on here.
tallguy
Nov 19, 2009 6:34 PM
Suggestion for the next ITNews Poll.

What do you find more annoying:
a) Digger11's anti-iiNet diatribes
OR
b) The commentors who rise to his bait
Tailgator
Nov 19, 2009 7:26 PM
re Poll. I'd vote a) because b) is a result of cause/effect. ;-)

As for this aspect of iiNets defense, I couldn't agree more. And it adds another string to their bow. AFACT is insisting that not only should an ISP instigate correspondence between a customer and the ISP (with potential legal consequences) on nothing more than AFACT's unsubstantiated say-so, but that the ISP should also bear the cost of the result of said correspondence.
The ramifications of this are that if an ISP forwards warnings then it is acting as a de-facto agent of AFACT, thus involving the ISP directly in what is essentially a dispute between an individual and AFACT.

Through this legal action, AFACT (and other like minded organisations) are attempting to;
a/ set themselves up as some sort of quasi official semi-legal body that determines who has committed an offence under the copyright laws and instigates action against said offenders,
b/ coerce ISPs into acting as their agents in enforcing action against said perceived (and unsubtantiated in a court of law) infringements, and
c/ expecting ISPs to bear the costs and legal implications of executing the intentions of AFACT and it's ilk.

If the judge were find in AFACTs favour it would be a travesty, and I for one would make a personal contribution to help fund an appeal.
Slatts
Nov 19, 2009 7:50 PM
Digger who?
TruthSphere
Nov 19, 2009 7:50 PM
If we don't take the 'bait' then someone who doesn't have so much knowledge within the IT industry might read the comments here and think was Digger11 has to say is the Status Quo of the IT community.
TruthSphere
Nov 19, 2009 7:59 PM
It's funny his name is 'Digger' yet he wants American Corporations + Sony to f!$k over an Australian Company.
btone
Nov 19, 2009 9:04 PM
@Thysce: Digger11 are you moron?

Debatable, but I feel good ol' 'troll' is a better descriptor. Need to stop feeding him I guess...
Sams
Nov 19, 2009 9:44 PM
Digger11: "They will only get off on some legal technicality so let's hope the guilty get what they deserve."

Yeah, AFACT loses I expect it will be because "the judge is an iiNet fanboi/employee" :-)
CodeSeeker
Nov 19, 2009 10:12 PM
As far as i know no ISP is clamping down on illegal activity other than child pornography, however i do know that ISP are offering more bandwith and higher speeds. And not counting uploads? Do you know why they are not counting uploads? is it to promote P2P? no.. its because upload cost them (the ISP) less. Very simple.. Everyone is guilty of something. At the end of the day what AFACT is after will never happen. They will not be successful.

Frankly helping copyrightholders protect their interest falls under what we call Corporate Responsibiilty. Anything such as reducing their greenhouse emissions footprint fall under the same catagory. And as you understand its up to the individual business to implement a roadmap to address certain issues to reduce the risk of affected stakeholders. They will need to do a cost/benefit analysis as well as ensuring they dont breech any laws in the process such as those in the telecommunication act.

Unfortunately AFACT wont win any friends in the ISP industry by going to court, this will do nothing more than delay any changes.
mck
Nov 19, 2009 10:59 PM
People should "REPORT" digger11.
Click on his name and on his profile page visit his "Last 10 Posts".
For each of his posts you find him trolling click the REPORT button.

If enough people do this then he will be banned, or better yet he might remain but learn and have improved behaviour.
ljraggy
Nov 20, 2009 3:08 AM
The court case is a JOKE, Two thumbs up for iinet.
On Sunday Ch 7 "The Force", A NSW store COPYING DVD'S and SELLING them got A $6000 fine for thousands of Pirated DVD's. These are the REAL PIRATES AFACT SHOULD BE AFTER. I bet the owners made Thousands more, there for its actually worth it if all you get is a $6k fine vs $50k Profit.
Rhino
Nov 20, 2009 9:58 AM
I'm going to find Digger11's licence plate and have their licence suspended as I am alleging he has committed traffic offences. Lots of them.

I don't have definitive proof, but an allegation is sufficient.
pricj004
Nov 20, 2009 11:33 AM
@ljraggy

I was a little suspicious of that 'The Force' segment.

After all, Channel 7 are part of AFACT. The whole thing reeked of propaganda -- encourage the general public to associate video piracy with evil, organised crime, while painting AFACT and their investigators as heroes.

Next time Joe and Jane public hear anything about this case, or piracy in general, they'll think of those dingy video shops and clandestine, commercial piracy operations.

The timing at least is suspicious.
nightflyer
Nov 20, 2009 12:38 PM
Hey I once had a friend who called a drug dealer for drugs. In fact I think this drug dealer did most of his work on the phone so I think Telstra is guilty of drug trafficking for allowing that to happen!
hellfire
Nov 21, 2009 8:41 AM
AFACT should bear the cost of policing the copyright if they want the ISP to police it for them as after all it is the responsibility of the copyright holders to protect their copyright. This case is about greed and wanting to impose responsibility on a third party to do a job it should not be responsible for.
Let us hope the court see common sense and makes a judgement including costs against AFACT.
pete123
Nov 22, 2009 11:09 AM
Even if they did pay the cost, what right have AFACT got to look at my private internet use? I haven't elected them, I haven't engaged in their services or signed any contracts with them.

There's a complicated series of checks and balances involved in the Australian Federal Police getting permission to monitor electronic communications on a suspected terrorist. Why should an American television studio be given greater powers to protect their business interests than the federal police are given to protect the public safety.

If the parliament of the courts feel that the copyright holders legal rights need protected to the point of spying then it should be done by an accountable legal body, not by a private international conglomerate.
vaxa
Nov 24, 2009 9:30 AM
I have a better idea.
Why do not we, get someone legal and create the case in the court against Police complaining that they do not do much to stop drunk drivers driving on the road or something silly thing like that? May be this will make more nose and will bring the attention of publicity.
Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu)
Nov 25, 2009 8:00 AM
If people like Digger11 were right, why stop at iiNet? Why not sue Telstra for having "enabled" the copyright violations. The local copper connection was used to actually transfer the illegal copies of these AFACT media titles.

Imagine what might have happened had iiNet, upon supply by AFACT of 'suspect' IP numbers, simply advised AFACT of the matching Telstra telephone number for that ADSL service. Then AFACT would have had to wonder about pursuing Telstra (instead of or in addition to iiNet) for failing to act according to AFACT's wishes. As the telephone service was used (allegedly) to breach copyright, Telstra would have had to face the dilemma of disconnecting an essential service to meet the profit motive of movie studios (on the same line of argument as now postulated by AFACT). And who would have been responsible when an ambulance could not be called? Now that would have made the test case more interesting, than having the studios chase a minor ISP.
vaxa
Nov 25, 2009 10:00 AM
Do you remember what iiNET did 4-6 months ago? They have abandoned the ISP filtering trial proposed by Conroy - the only ISP that left the trial and openly admitted that the ISP filtering is a nonsense. Well - now we have someone chasing iiNET in the court. Considering iiNET has ~ 10% internet users share in Australia, I assume the remaining 90% of users will have much larger proportion of users who illegally donwload movies .... etc. So who is the bad boy in town - right, the small one :)
Desk
Nov 25, 2009 1:21 PM
"Imagine what might have happened had iiNet, upon supply by AFACT of 'suspect' IP numbers, simply advised AFACT of the matching Telstra telephone number for that ADSL service. Then AFACT would have had to wonder about pursuing Telstra (instead of or in addition to iiNet) for failing to act according to AFACT's wishes. As the telephone service was used (allegedly) to breach copyright, Telstra would have had to face the dilemma of disconnecting an essential service to meet the profit motive of movie studios (on the same line of argument as now postulated by AFACT). And who would have been responsible when an ambulance could not be called? Now that would have made the test case more interesting, than having the studios chase a minor ISP."

Doesn't even need to go that far... From my house i am able to access 1 unsecured wireless connection and 1 using WEP. If they were running naked DSL and VOIP as their primary contact line if i (or any other random person wandering along) was to use their network to download illegally and their connection got suspended they are again without any phone line which could prove fatal in an emergency
marklara
Feb 8, 2010 5:04 PM
@Digger11:
"iiNet clearly guilty."

WRONG!!!!!! Hahahaha. Suck it.
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