Day 17: Film industry attacks iiNet witness selection

 

Chief executive Michael Malone bears the brunt.

ISP iiNet's chief Michael Malone has witnessed first-hand an attempt by barristers representing the film industry to assassinate his character in the Federal Court, with the film industry's lead barrister labelling Malone's evidence as "incredible", "evasive" and unreliable.

The ISP's chief regulatory officer Steve Dalby did not fare much better in the film industry's closing submissions read to Justice Cowdroy in the copyright case this afternoon.

The film industry's lead barrister Tony Bannon attacked what he termed Malone's "extreme views" -that the Copyright Act should be modified or an industry code introduced before iiNet should be compelled to act on alleged infringement notifications.

Bannon claimed iiNet's approach in the case "was to deploy a variety and number of excuses" for not passing on the notices. The "excuses" included that passing on the notices would present a technical and cost burden for the ISP, he said.

He was also scathing of what he termed "persons not called", referring to the appearance of only Malone and Dalby as principle witnesses for cross-examination, rather than any of the ISP's technical or customer service resources to assist the court.

"The absence of witnesses who truly knew about the relevant topics put Mr Malone in the position in effect of having to provide evidence on subject matters on which he had no actual knowledge," Bannon claimed.

Nowhere was this more apparent than in iiNet's denials of knowledge of the inner-workings of the BitTorrent client or protocol, Bannon alleged.

"To put forward these two gentleman as the extent of familiarity of BitTorrent in the company is an entirely inaccurate picture of a company which plainly has a mass of technical expertise," Bannon submitted.

"It beggars belief that a company which paints itself as an internet pioneer doesn't have a level of knowledge within that company that knows exactly how the BitTorrent client works."

Bannon "respectfully" branded Malone's distinction that he understood the protocol rather than the client as "nonsense".

He said the issue of media releases in November last year as torrent files "added insult to injury.

"The company created its own torrent file and torrent tracker, which is accessible by someone who had a BitTorrent client," Bannon said.

"But you get the impression from these two witnesses BitTorrent was all a foreign area" with only "begrudging" admissions of what they knew, he said.

"It turns out the only people in this court room who can't engage in the most basic operation [of a BitTorrent client] are representatives of the ISP iiNet," Bannon said, raising his voice for emphasis.

"iiNet as a company perfectly understood the way BitTorrent works. That has been one of the great artifices iiNet has attempted to construct as a roadblock to a finding of authorisation in this case."

Bannon was equally scathing of Dalby's evidence, particularly that there was "not a single word [he] could give in evidence" to support Malone's assertion of the existence of a repeat infringer policy.

Malone was accused under cross-examination last week of having the policy only "in his head" - but he claimed that Dalby was also aware the policy existed.

"There was not a single word Mr Dalby could give in evidence to support the proposition that he ever had a single discussion with Mr Malone about a policy," Bannon submitted.

"[Malone] has no support from Mr Dalby on that issue.

"The silence on that front [in Dalby's evidence] is absolutely damning. The inference to be drawn is that no such policy exists."

The case continues. You can follow the case in-full here. For a background on the case, click here.


Day 17: Film industry attacks iiNet witness selection
"*oops* do I have this mention that this only my opinion/argument. we are commenting from the stalls of an arena of legal practitioners that can strip us bare by uttering a precedent. Is it safe to ..."
By Private Citizen
 
 
 
Comments: 22
hmschouten
Nov 10, 2009 5:25 PM
..."The "excuses" included that passing on the notices would present a technical and cost burden for the ISP, he said." ...

Well if it is that simple, cheap and easy - why hasn't AFACT already developed the software and approached each ISP and said here it is - use it for free?

IMO it appears AFACT expects everyone else to protect their copyright for them by waving a big stick about.
BrettWinterford
Nov 10, 2009 5:34 PM
A very good point!
rycrozier
Nov 10, 2009 10:53 PM
@hmschouten: the film industry held up a piece of code developed by Exetel which it claimed was open source and freely available to anyone that wanted it.

http://www.itnews.com.au/News/159653,day-12-exetel-blog-surfaces-in-iinet-cross-examination.aspx

Anyone know anyone that has evaluated it (other than Exetel that is)?
peterh_oz
Nov 10, 2009 11:30 PM
If AFACT's team weren't happy with the witnesses, why didn't they subpoaena other iiNet staff?
KB
Nov 11, 2009 3:58 AM
It is not up to iiNet to prove anything, it is up to AFACT. If AFACT can not provide the answers then why try to badger them out of witnesses. I also feel that the way the AFACT got their evidence is bordering on entrapment. Lets put up a torrent and see who downloads it. I bet that there would have been other ip addresses in the list.
This case has to be one of the biggest waste of time ever.
For the record, I do not use torrents.
RogerDodger
Nov 11, 2009 8:17 AM
@hmschouten/@rycrozier: In any case, the law provides safe harbours to ISPs provided they adopt and reasonably implement a policy for repeat infringements. AFACT don't need to provide code to each ISP. This point I believe, is only to show it is not onerous to do something.

Irrespective of this, iiNet (Dalby & Malone) said they would never take action anyway.

@peterh_oz: iiNet need to provide witnesses/evidence in support of their defence.

@KB: No such thing as entrapment under Australian law.
hellfire
Nov 11, 2009 8:27 AM
AFACT still misses the point that it is the Copright Holder who is responsible to enforce and protect their copyright and not the ISP. The ISP can not disconnect a client based merely on an allegation which is all it is when AFACT notifies it of copyright infringement. But they could once the guilty party had been taken to court by AFACT and a judgement made in AFACT's favour. Then the ISP would be acting on a proven fact. This case is so simple and it is only this fact that really matters. The court should rule in favour of iNet.
RogerDodger
Nov 11, 2009 8:33 AM
@hellfire - if that was the case, than ISPs would not have bothered with lobbying for protection from authorisation by way of safe harbours as they would not be required to take action, nor would they need a policy for repeat infringers as the court would decide sanction - not the ISP.

TruthSphere
Nov 11, 2009 9:30 AM
"No such thing as entrapment under Australian law."

Doesn't make it morally right.
Digger11
Nov 11, 2009 9:44 AM
What is wrong with Entrapment ???? If the police leave the keys in a parked car and some loser steals it then you would let them off would you ???

Entrapment is Civil Libertarian Gumph for protecting CRIMINALS.

Don't do the crime and you won't do the time.
GeordieGuy
Nov 11, 2009 10:26 AM
G'day Digger11. Geordie Guy again, the guy who explained to you that I was interested in this case and commenting from my experience as a prominent technologist and technology policy expert. You still haven't explained to people in these comments why you have such a hysterically unpopular view of the issues here, you're still anonymous. Perhaps you'd like to clear up who you are for us so we can put your statements into some sort of context?
TruthSphere
Nov 11, 2009 10:47 AM
I hope you've turned in every coin you've found on the ground and not just pocketed it, might be a cop watching it you thief ;)
Scengy
Nov 11, 2009 11:33 AM
Damn those civil libertarians. They'll be the end of society.

Mind you whilst 'entrapment' law might not exist technically, defence can get evidence quashed if it's obtained through unlawful conduct, no?

And is ensnarement different to entrapment? Is there a legal distinction?

If the police left keys in a car and a person stole the car without any encouragement, then it seems reasonable to me that the accused would have acted on their own volition.

If the police left keys in a car and then sent an undercover officer to 'encourage' a suspected (but as yet uncharged due to lack of evidence?) car thief to steal it, is that (ethically) right? Coercion? When no-one is nudging you towards something it's entirely voluntary, but each person perceives and handles 'suggestive' language and peer pressure differently.. hhmm

Anyway, nice to get off track there.

Do you ever post more than one comment Digger? Or is it guerrilla tactics?
Digger11
Nov 11, 2009 1:59 PM
@Scengy What else do you want me to post??? I think I have made all of the points that are necessary.

On entrapment - if you told me to jump off a cliff or murder someone or steal a car, I still wouldn't do it. You can only "entrap" criminals anyway.
That is why the Civil Libertarian movement is full of criminals, and deluded lawyers.

@Geordie Guy. Hi ! you are friendly. I am as anonyomous as all other posters. I am not pro AFACT either, but am taking great enjoyment at seeing iiNet get what was coming to them.
p.s. I also like stirring up the iiNet Fanbois - but don't tell them because that would spoil all of my fun.

Who thinks a Guilty verdict ? and who thinks the opposite ?
I think they're gone for all money. If found guilty, what is the penalty ? Is it $'s ?
Digger
GeordieGuy
Nov 11, 2009 2:02 PM
Entrapment and ensnarement are largely the same thing and neither have been recognised as a defence in Australia before. There have been some situations in which a judge in a particular case has tossed out evidence because the police can't be allowed to act after the ends without thinking about the means, particularly I believe in NSW and not so much elsewhere.

This is all beside the point however; Digger11 refuses to identify himself, he refuses to engage with people commenting on these posts, refuses to use only one question mark, entrapment is not a concept in civil law and AFACT are a sneaky organisation with scant regard for honesty who make up words and uses for them faster than the Canberra Mint can stamp out 10c coins.
Sams
Nov 11, 2009 2:26 PM
Digger11: "I also like stirring up the iiNet Fanbois - but don't tell them because that would spoil all of my funn"

So really you are just some attention seeking child, which would account for the lack of copyright law knowledge:

Digger11 (Oct 16): "would any reasonable man in the ISP industry ever honestly not think that many,many iiNet users are downloading copyright material???"

Sams (Oct 16): "You are downloading "copyright material" right now - see the copyright notice at the bottom of this page. You don't know what you are talking about."
Dangolbery
Nov 11, 2009 2:36 PM
@Digger11. In the world you in vision i’m going to ring up the police and tell them i saw you stash 10kg of cocaine under your flood boards, just because i don't like you. 30 minutes later you'd have no flood boards as the police would of tore them up all looking for the alleged cocaine. Because if they did find it then they could still use it in court to send you to jail, and if they don’t they can just all say they were never there. Win win! Although with such a simple minded, un-objective thought process i hope you're far too young to own a home or even be allowed to drive.
Rhino
Nov 11, 2009 2:49 PM
Ok Digger11, just so that I understand where your coming from, you said "If the police leave the keys in a parked car and some loser steals it then you would let them off would you".

So lets break it down to relate to this case.
"If the police" or in this case AFACT, "leave the keys in a parked car" or in this case movies/tv shows as dvd are freely available, "nd some loser steals it" in this case being the downloader, "then you would let them off would you" that's right, you prosecute the downloader.

So by your own statements, AFACT should actually be trying to prosecute the person who is committing the downloading. Instead what they're trying to do is sue the car manufacturer for providing the vessel to allow car theft.

Ahhhh but I forgot the most important piece. It's easier to go after the provider than it is the actual criminal.
Sams
Nov 11, 2009 3:27 PM
Rhino wrote:
Ok Digger11, just so that I understand where your coming from, you said "If the police leave the keys in a parked car and some loser steals it then you would let them off would you".


IDigger11 doesn't understand that guilt has to be proven. His statement presumes guilt where he uses the word "steal" - his statement is essentially a petitio principii fallacy (a.k.a. 'missing the point'), and is equivalent to saying "a criminal is a criminal" i.e. a tautology (it has zero logical value).
Apaule-font
Nov 11, 2009 3:53 PM
@KB - Actually, the investigators downloaded from iinet customers but Malone thought it was the other way around. Have a look at day 13.
Private Citizen
Nov 11, 2009 4:13 PM
Regardless I think this case is premature as AFACT are yet to prove that their "evidence" of infringements can endure due process.

They may have convincing argument that evidence is valid but until they point their evidence at an infringer and have that infringer challenge its validity in a courtroom, then their "evidence" is not proven. So I agree with the unproven allegations argument. It is not upto IINET to test AFACT evidence only a court can do that.

The entrapment argument never seems to apply in Australa. I have a basic understanding of torrent / p2p - which seems to be all that is required for this case. AFACT may have contributed to their loss by advertising that they were an active member of a torrent cloud. To a Torrent user the number of members in a cloud can be a determining factor in starting a torrent, theory being more clients the faster the download. A large cloud membership can be perceived as a level of legitimacy for a torrent.

Now AFACT would need to prove that their presence did not increase the advertised torrent cloud membership, that they did not feed any copyrighted material to the cloud otherwise they have not taken efforts to reduce their loss and may have participated in increasing their loss.

Based on this, their tracking agency would not have used the torrent client demonstrated in open court as I believe they could not controlled the abovemention participation using that client. Furthermore if they even submitted phony packets they would contributed to the torrents availability rating. Maybe their client falsely advertised that it had a high availability of pieces. This would also encourage other users to start downloading the torrent.

So in summary AFACT seem to have purposely allowed one or more of their properties to be diminished so they could launch actions against an intermediary, because it did not want to launch court proceedings against the actual infringers.

As they did not take reasonable steps to minimise their loss (eg individual court actions), their claims of damages should be diminished accordingly.

reduce to the ridiculous scenario, a bank notices that someone has advertised that they have left a wad of the banks money on the sidewalk. Rather than removing the money and charging the advertiser (eg. reasonable steps to minimise their loss), they leave the money where it is and add a "me too" to the advertisement. Someone sends a courier to collect the money. The courier delivers the money. The bank charges the courier with contributing to its losses. Yet it had time to act to minimise the loss.

By pursuing a known recalcitrant ISP, AFACT did not take the necessary legal actions to limit its losses.
Private Citizen
Nov 11, 2009 6:37 PM
*oops* do I have this mention that this only my opinion/argument. we are commenting from the stalls of an arena of legal practitioners that can strip us bare by uttering a precedent. Is it safe to comment on the performance of barristers :-)
Comments have been disabled for this article.
 
 
Top Stories
NBN Co could miss revised June fibre targets
Analysis: Cutting it fine in the race to the line.
 
Review: Sydney's Opal smartcard
It's no Oyster card.
 
Rackspace puts price premium on Aussie public cloud
At least 17 percent more compared to US instances.
 
 
Sign up to receive iTnews email bulletins
   FOLLOW US...

Latest VideosSee all videos »

iTnews Academy: Microsoft Windows Server 2012 - Hyper-V
iTnews Academy: Microsoft Windows Server 2012 - Hyper-V
Interview: Australia's 'cloud-last' policy is dangerous.
Interview: Australia's 'cloud-last' policy is dangerous.
Interview: Vivek Kundra on Australia's 'cloud last' policy
Bankwest builds continuous delivery capability
Bankwest builds continuous delivery capability
To automatically deploy test/dev sandboxes by mid-year.
Veterans' Affairs sets sights on modernisation
Veterans' Affairs sets sights on modernisation
Data safe with Human Services, CIO says.
Citi Australia drops platform customisations
Citi Australia drops platform customisations
Technology chief shifts focus from building to leveraging systems.
VicRoads restructures IT team
VicRoads restructures IT team
Department moves to align with industry benchmarks.
Zurich Australia extends IT team offshore
Zurich Australia extends IT team offshore
Malaysian staff served from Australian data centres.
Leigh Berrell - Utilities CIO of the Year
Leigh Berrell - Utilities CIO of the Year
Yarra Valley Water CIO Leigh Berrell accepts his Benchmark Award for Utilities CIO of the Year.
Wayne McMahon - Retail CIO of the Year
Wayne McMahon - Retail CIO of the Year
Domino's Pizza CIO Wayne McMahon accepts his Benchmark Award for Retail CIO of the Year.
Inside Perpetual's ongoing IT transformation
Inside Perpetual's ongoing IT transformation
CIO Jenny Levy discusses how outsourcing will help the firm "simplify, refocus and grow".
Managing Complexity - Defence's Daniel McCabe
Managing Complexity - Defence's Daniel McCabe
Daniel McCabe, Assistant Secretary of Australia's Department of Defence, provides the audience at the iTnews Data Centre Strategy Summit with a deep dive into the organisation's data centre consolidation program.
How Facebook designed the data centre from scratch - Marco Magarelli
How Facebook designed the data centre from scratch - Marco Magarelli
The full keynote by Facebook data centre architect Marco Magarelli at the Australian Data Centre Strategy Summit. Magarelli details the design considerations behind the social network's Prineville, Oregon; North Carolina and Luleå, Sweden data centres.
Modernising Legacy Data Centres - Telstra's Jon Curry
Modernising Legacy Data Centres - Telstra's Jon Curry
Telstra general manager of managed data centres Jon Curry guides the audience at the iTnews Australian Data Centre Summit through the build of the telco's Clayton, Victoria data centre.
NSW Government launches NABERS data centre rating tools
NSW Government launches NABERS data centre rating tools
Matthew Clark from the NSW Department of Environment guides facilties managers through the details of the new NABERS data centre energy rating tool at the Australian Data Centre Strategy Summit.
NABERS launch panel: Australian Data Centre Strategy Summit
NABERS launch panel: Australian Data Centre Strategy Summit
Matthew Clark (NSW Dept of Environment), Greg Boorer (Canberra Data Centres), Glenn Allan (National Australia Bank), Mike Andrea (Strategic Directions) and Bob Sharon (Green Global Consulting) discuss the impact of the NABERS data centre rating.
Judges notes: Fortescue Metals [The Benchmark Awards]
Judges notes: Fortescue Metals [The Benchmark Awards]
iTnews' panel of judges discuss Fortescue Metals 'New World of Work" project, one of three shortlisted finalists for the Industrials category of the CIO Benchmark Awards.
Judges notes: Retail [The Benchmark Awards]
Judges notes: Retail [The Benchmark Awards]
iTnews' panel of judges discuss the shortlisted finalists for the Retail category of the CIO Benchmark Awards.
Judges notes: Pacific Aluminium [The Benchmark Awards]
Judges notes: Pacific Aluminium [The Benchmark Awards]
iTnews' panel of judges discuss Pacific Aluminium's lightning fast service desk refresh, one of three shortlisted finalists for the Industrials category of the CIO Benchmark Awards.
Judges notes: Domino's Pizza [The Benchmark Awards]
Judges notes: Domino's Pizza [The Benchmark Awards]
iTnews' panel of judges discuss Domino's Pizza's shift to hosted services, one of three shortlisted finalists for the Retail category of the CIO Benchmark Awards.
Judges notes: McDonald's Australia [The Benchmark Awards]
Judges notes: McDonald's Australia [The Benchmark Awards]
iTnews' panel of judges discuss McDonald's Australia's new self-service portal for employees, one of three shortlisted finalists for the Retail category of the CIO Benchmark Awards.
Latest articles on BIT Latest Articles from BIT
How to use Microsoft OneNote to organise your minutes, memos and more
Jun 18, 2013
You might already have OneNote, but you might have never used it. Here's how to use it to ...
Microsoft’s new Office Mobile app for iPhone looks handy, but there’s a catch
Jun 17, 2013
Click here to see what the biggest hurdle to using Microsoft's just-announced Office Mobile app ...
A handy app for finding the cheapest parking
Jun 14, 2013
This app takes the hassle and the cost out of finding a car park in the city. It is available on ...
Small business rallying cry continues before election
Jun 13, 2013
Hate paperwork? Find taxes too complicated? Then the organisers of this nation-wide petition ...
I want to save money: can I spend less on Microsoft Office?
Jun 11, 2013
Can't afford Microsoft Office? Here is a basic introduction to some options if you're looking to ...
Latest Comments
Polls
Will you quit any cloud services in light of PRISM?

   |   View results
Yes
  61%
 
No
  39%
TOTAL VOTES: 70

Vote