NSW seeks to build unhackable netbook network

Sep 23, 2009 12:36 PM
Tags: netbook | nsw | det | rfid | bios | lenovo | windows | aruba | airwave | applocker | socks | filtering

The world's "most hostile computing environment".

The NSW Department of Education is using asset-tracking software, RFID tags, and BIOS-embedded filtering smarts to roll out 240,000 netbook computers into what CIO Stephen Wilson calls "the most hostile environment you can roll computers into" - the local high school.

The rollout of Lenovo netbooks, funded under the Federal Government's Digital Education Revolution initiative, is a massive logistical and IT security challenge, and the solution Wilson and his team has put together to fix these issues could well be applicable to any corporate IT department.

Over four years, some 240,000 Lenovo netbooks will be offered to students in year nine. The netbooks can be kept until year 12, or permanently should the student finish his or her studies at the school. Netbooks are also being offered to teachers.

To take receipt of the netbooks, students and parents are asked to sign forms in which they acknowledge their responsibility to take care of the machines and use them appropriately.

They are armed with an enterprise version of the new Windows 7 operating system, Microsoft Office, the Adobe CS4 creative suite, Apple iTunes, and content geared to students. Although the netbooks are loaded with many hundreds of dollars of software, 2GB RAM and a six-hour battery, the cost to the NSW Department of Education is less than $500 a unit.

Underneath the covers of the netbooks - and within the network that controls them - lies a great deal more smarts to ensure that the total cost of ownership of each machine does not blow out.

Wilson said that while private schools and other states have taken a "carte blanche" approach to handing out laptops as part of the Digital Education Revolution, the DET rollout is "among the more systematic, automated and paperless" projects ever embarked upon.

Security smarts

At the physical layer, each netbook is password-protected and embedded with tracking software at the BIOS level of the machine.

That is administered through an enterprise services bus, which also connects the Remedy suite for asset management, Active Directory for authentication and Aruba's Airwave for wireless network management.

If a netbook were to be stolen or sold, the department can remotely disable it over the network. Even if the hard drive of the machine was swapped out or the operating system wiped, it would be useless to unauthorised users.

Already, it has noted the loss or damage of just six netbooks out of the 20,000 rolled out since August - and have tracked a teacher using their device on a field trip in New Zealand.

While there is a serial number and barcode on each computer, the department said that thieves or students might be able to remove them. To combat this, it is using passive RFID chips on every machine that will enable them to be identified "even if they were dropped in a bathtub".

Being passive, an RFID reader needs to be within close proximity of the device to read it. (Active RFID transmitted a signal back to base.)

The department used the AppLocker functionality within Windows 7 to dictate which applications are installed.

Web access on the netbooks is filtered according to a corporate security policy (using McAfee's SmartFilter technology) plus an additional SOCKS-based proxy client, which provides web filtering at the network layer.

The devices also use Microsoft's Forefront Antivirus technology.

Upgrades

With such a huge fleet of computers in the hands of students, Wilson said it would be "unrealistic" for the department to offer technical support for software applications.

The netbooks were built so that the department can remotely upgrade and patch the devices over a wireless network.

It used Microsoft's System Centre Configuration Manager tool to distribute software down to devices.

The update service switches off once a student finishes year 12.

Wilson said there was no way such a large fleet of machines could be managed at such low cost without the smarts embedded within Microsoft's new operating system.

"There was no way we could do any of this on XP," he said. "Windows 7 nailed it for us."

 


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NSW seeks to build unhackable netbook network
"[quote]and have tracked a teacher using their device on a field trip in New Zealand{/quote So, you can be tracked? What privacy provisions are built into this? Who sees the info, what govt depts ..."
 
 
Comments: 82
Thoughts on this article? Add a comment below.
heggz
Sep 23, 2009 3:19 PM
2MB of RAM? Hmm, that's not very much...
bengrubb
Sep 23, 2009 3:36 PM
@heggz Fixed! Cheers for that.
mck
Sep 23, 2009 6:46 PM
Big brother knows where every student and teacher is now :-)

And of course none of this BIOS-level security smarts would be possible in another operating system :-D

funkyg
Sep 24, 2009 6:37 AM
It's easy to see the ways in just from your report. Adobe currently have issues with Acrobat, and frankly don't update these often enough. There are then issues with updating windows. Say you have a school with 200 of these machines each downloading a windows update of say 100MB. That gives you 20GB of data to clog your network in a day, not including any work. You can then assume you'd need a staggered update which gives a chance for any security holes to be reverse engineered and exploited. I won't even mention zero day exploits.

Sorry, despite your best efforts you won't be talking about an unhackable network in a few months (if it even takes a few months), and frankly should not be talking about one now either!
funkyg
Sep 24, 2009 6:39 AM
...and I should add that I still don't know why you have creative suite on a machine that just doesn't have the grunt or screen size to run it.
BrettWinterford
Sep 24, 2009 8:11 AM
@FunkyG - Still you have to admit, this is a very well thought out roll-out. When was the last time your average corporate IT environment had so much attention to detail?
I have a feeling the CS4 suite put on the machines have been optimised for the small screens - they seemed to work OK when I tried them.
laman
Sep 24, 2009 9:09 AM
funkyg, you are mistaken. Windows Update is cached on the local server on the school network, so no matter how many machines are there in the school, a 100MB Windows Update will only be 100MB. I am confident to say this because I am supporting the school network.
gikku
Sep 24, 2009 2:11 PM
and these PCs belong to the children? how?
forest_rd
Sep 25, 2009 7:02 AM
These machines are good general purpose machines but what about all the students that are focusing on computers in their studies?

but it's ok, open up the machine, swap the bios, reinstall their choice of OS, and there's an unlocked machine (apart from the pesky RFID tag)
Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu)
Sep 25, 2009 11:40 AM
The NetNazi approach of only allowing users to load apps that are 'approved' by NSW DET should ENSURE that there is a ready market for the Linux community to come out with a USBstick-run Ubuntu with whatever BIOS workarounds are required. And if DET has BIOS-blocked other boot devices, a ready market for the replacement BIOS chips to make the machines 'open'.
It is simply perverse to put M$ and Adobe entirely-proprietary solutions on taxpayer-funded PCs, and then lock them to prevent the loading of truly ISO-standard compliant free apps. Yes, DET ought have some way to 'factory reset' the machines, so if people stuff-up, the PCs can be restored to 'like new'... but preventing open/standard software is going too far.
And when the free updates stop in Yr12, the kids still can't load anything else? But are still stuck on M$+Adobe without updates. Worse still they are by then well-trained in only proprietary top-billing systems. At least first-time heroin users realise why the first hit is free... it's clearly to get them hooked for life. Most parents of school kiddies aren't sufficiently experienced with the software industry to realise that the state is now helping 'the pushers'. As soon as this roll-out is completed, DET ought retire all the senior decision-makers, and then get to work promptly on how to do the roll-out of the open source replacement, to fix the mess, well-before the first 'users' reach Year 12.
At a minimum, DET ought publish the explicit instructions of how to 'change over' the system to a fully-functional Ubuntu, with Open Office, Firefox, Thunderbird, GIMP image editing, Qcad CAD software, Amarok MP3-player mgmt, etc. And if this requires an unlocked BIOS, then DET ought provide that upgrade. And they should then allow anyone in Years 11 and 12 to change-over to open source, as long as they 'sign off' that they will no longer be relying upon DET for support in any way. I just bet that the school-based support will be so bad, the app restrictions so tight, that even non-IT-skilled Year 11 students would be opting over to the open source solution. Let the RFID tags remain, but stop the NetNazi bits. It seems like DET is revisiting Bill Gates' magnificent vision of 'The Microsoft Network' where in the 1990s, M$ thought it would block out the unapproved bits of the internet and provide its own competing network, which would meet users' every need. Naturally, it never got far, as what people wanted was not a restricted set of apps and a tiny sub-set of the internet, but rather the openness of the real internet.
And, if DET do not come out with plain/simple ways to remove the locking into M$ and Adobe (to the exclusion of other competing and even free apps) then someone ought run a Trade Practices Act injunction against the NSW government, noting it is (in a business area - ie non-TPA-exempt) seeking to establish an unfair monopoly in a market, by entering into anti-competitive arrangements with parties who hold significant market share. It is one thing for the state to enter into contracts with multiple-felon Microsoft, but to deploy software to prevent use of competitive software is illegal and completely contrary to the public interest. And if 'opening it up somewhat' might cause the 'free software' to no longer be supplied for free simply proves that it is the 'first hit for free' heroin analogy is right. It is NOT just about DET doing things within its budget... it can't sell off the future software licence fees payable by those kids, as a way to get free software now. The minimum duty the state owes our kids is to keep the pushers out of the playground, rather than authorising their exclusive distribution rights within schools. The 'lock-in' about which the DET staff are so proud is the antithesis of national competition policy.
Slatts
Sep 25, 2009 12:24 PM
Interesting rant Graeme.
The NSW government is supplying students with locked down laptops so the teaching staff, students and support people only have to specialise in a limited area and everyone is working from the same system.
You, on the other hand want the systems to run whatever the kiddies find of interest on the interwebs.
What a marvellous idea.
funkyg
Sep 25, 2009 1:04 PM
I should clarify that when I mentioned 20GB of data in a day, I wasn't thinking that this would be downloaded from the internet. 20GB extra through a wireless network is also a major problem.

As for creative suite. I use a dual screen arrangement with a laptop as one screen and a 23" monitor on the other. From experience (as well as Adobe's spec) you wouldn't want to do anything serious in less that that. You could probably get away with it by plugging the netbooks into a second monitor but there is still the issue of grunt. My system regularly is ground to it's knees with Photoshop producing 500+MB files, and that's just for web page mockups in 1280x768 resolution. True I use layer comps but netbooks just wouldn't handle it.
eazy
Sep 25, 2009 2:31 PM
So Graeme never heard of an SOE before?

Sounds like a well thought out solution, I agree with funkyg...why the heck have CS4 on a netbook it'll kill it...but yeh there's some smart geeks out there that will get around all of the security and the Admin's hard work, that's just life in a corporate type IT environment.
Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu)
Sep 25, 2009 6:38 PM
I fear Slatts interpreted my rage against the corporate sponsorship of schools as if my argument was that the kids ought have carte blanche access to porn or other objectionable material on their PCs. I think the issue of objectionable content is quite separate to OS and app choice. With Win7,IE8 & Adobe they could just as easily have inappropriate images on their PCs.
My argument was about selling-out the kids' future for corporate sponsorship. Why not start in junior school, by explaining to parents that only Nestle snacks can be eaten on school grounds, and only Coca Cola Amatil drinks drunk, due to sponsorship deals reached between DET and the corporate sponsors concerned. I don't care if you argue that the money is going to Sister Theresa's charity... There are some forms of selling-out that are unacceptable... especially when they are Fed-paid-for PCs and the state is only meant to be "distributing" them. Seems that they are intentionally knobbling them, so they are useless to a kid after school (in evenings and after Yr12). Effectively locking kids in to a M$+Adobe world is an unacceptable sell-out... even if free. I don't have a problem with schools receiving free software from these companies... but the implicit 'bargain' is that the competitors are excluded... and it is this 'exclusive dealing' which is explicitly proscribed by the TPA. We don't let Holden do deals saying, if you buy the car, you have to get all its fuel for its whole life from Coles, due to a deal we did to exclude others. That is the nature of the European Commission's objections to Apple's iPod, stipulating that the only song rights purchasable are from Apple's iStore. Some people claim "well it's easier that way"... but why stop there, why not have the obstetrician who delivers your kid say "The birth went well... and I signed up your son to use only Telstra's telephony services for his whole life." Clearly such lock-ins should not be limited to things like cars! Well, it is not that much farther along the spectrum of what is or is not acceptable for your public school to say "We locked your son into an M$ environment for his life. We started him with his MSN in kindy, by Yr2 he had his Hotmail account, and since Yr7 he's been fully-locked in to Win7, IE8 and Adobe, but he's done really well on all the tests we set using their proprietary approaches and file formats."
So, for Slatts, I have no objection to whatever filtering DET wants to put on website access, ports, etc on the internet access from schools. But just don't tell me that the only MP3 player they can have is a Zune, the only web email that works is Hotmail, that they now use Bing instead of Google, and they've grown to LOVE the proprietary formats offered by M$... because we'd all object if they were forced to be 100% Nestle, Coke etc.
And while DET is at it, how would we react if DET said they've decided to censor/limit the Chinese Studies course content, to not offend sensitivities of school-sponsor Lenovo... but Bing might already do that (per the type of deals NewsCorp and various IT majors entered into with the Chinese government)?
And what about great apps that run under Win7 but don't have 'promoters' offering deals to DET. 'Irfanview' (www.irfanview.com) is the most widely downloaded image handling utility and is 'completely free'. It supports 150+ image formats, loads 20x faster than Adobe, flips images 5x faster than Adobe, keeps strictly to standards, and runs blindingly fast on netbooks (Atom CPU etc). If you load in 100-1000 photos from a digital camera, Irfanview is FAR preferable for scanning through to do immediate deletions, flips, rotates, horizon corrections, text overlays etc. The batch mode beats the hell out of Adobe for transformations, cut-down images, or adding copyright text etc. Irfanview is NOT as good as CS4 for true special effects (layers, blurs, merges etc). After 20 years in commercial imaging, I'd say Irfanview is far preferable for handling a volumes of images, while CS4 is far better if you are to spend over 15 mins doing special effects on a single image. But is Irfanview going to be an 'approved app' when it competes with Adobe's product, or do the kids have to learn only the super-slow way to do things, due to a DET sponsorship deal?
I think the DET contracts are (in effect), exclusive lock-out dealings as proscribed by the TPA. Moreover, they are offensive by reason of being state-sponsored 'Vendor Lock-In' (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freebie_marketing).
The DET incompetents who planned this netbook prison for the next generation will eventually be forced to open it up, or lose their jobs. Let's hope they learn sooner rather than later.
anonymous
Sep 25, 2009 7:12 PM
Somebody seems to come across a bit precious here, as well as being somewhat loquacious.

Wildly talking about selling out the kids' future for corporate sponsorship sounds more than a little silly. If we look beyond the green mirage, we could see that any glorious centrally-planned education system might not be able to provide all the desirable ancilliary components of current education needs.

Of course any sponsorship could be dangerous - the kids might learn to be independent of centrist fads and responsible for their own actions!
lambsie
Sep 26, 2009 7:42 AM
I've had it with these, I doubt anyone can agree they're helping with learning, there the biggest distraction ever!

At least K Rudd can get his election votes on suck up parents who don't know the full picture!

Bloody TSO is a fat slobby idiot who's lucky to have a job! What kind of idiot tells me to not use a bloody ethernet cable in a room where the signal for nswdet isnt't reached, and saying it's apparently faster with that network. I mean common Sense! The other TSO aint much better who can barley speak English and can't detect that the networks arent working because wireless isn't on!

I dont see why I have to report my Adobe Suite is not genuine; Just give me a fucking serial key for it, instead of telling me to report it so they can format it and all my shit is gone! I'd rather get my own portable versions. They try to make everything so difficult.
Slatts
Sep 26, 2009 6:04 PM
lambsie, you wouldn't be one of those bitter and twisted liberal voters I've read about who can't get over the election would you?

I wrote:
Interesting rant Graeme.
The NSW government is supplying students with locked down laptops so the teaching staff, students and support people only have to specialise in a limited area and everyone is working from the same system.
You, on the other hand want the systems to run whatever the kiddies find of interest on the interwebs.
What a marvellous idea.

Nope, nothing there about kiddie porn...
"You, on the other hand want the systems to run whatever the kiddies find of interest on the interwebs."
eg programs.
The things are base level learning tools. They have to be managed and maintained by semi-skilled personnel.
You don't want the things being loaded with non-standard software, malware, viruses and crapware that detracts from the systems basic purpose, EG school work, and make support a time consuming nightmare.
Now let's see if the quotes worked properly ;-)
snowman
Sep 28, 2009 12:49 AM
As a parent of a child who is about to enter year 9 in NSW and an IT professional with 25yrs experience I can safely say that this is a nightmare... Graeme comes across a little strong but his point is none the less valid. This is a bald faced attempt to indoctrinate my children with rote knowledge of the menu layout of a few proprietary software packages rather than teach them to use computers in a critical thinking mode.

Will those who reject the offer be marked down if they perform their assignments in OpenOffice on the laptops they already have? That's the big question. Gritting our teeth and saying thank you to avoid punitive action by petty bureaucrats is not something Aussies should have to put up with.
joeyweed
Sep 28, 2009 2:24 AM
This is disturbing. This could have easily been done before with non-Microsoft solutions. Apple computers and certainly GNU/Linux were options. The school is utilizing unethical means to unethically block students from learning about the world around them. This type of training students on particular products is exactly what higher education is against. School should be about teaching concepts and restricting students to specific software is a really bad idea. It doesn't prepare kids for change that will occur even within the time frames they are in school. Despite what those in the article say these laptops like all laptops can be hacked. The question is how hard it is and does an unhackable laptop make it worthless to a thief or hacker? I'd argue it still has value. Many of the components in this laptop are worth something. The memory, hard drive, screen, etc are worth something. Maybe the proprietary chip is too cumbersome for the average thief- but certainly the average technical user could utilize/and or profit from the parts in these laptops. As far as cost goes- did anything even begin to think how useless these netbooks probably are to students? Adobe Creative Suites? Microsoft's limitation on the netbook's screen size means these programs are basically worthless. The other issue is the CPU probably isn't sufficient to get acceptable performance with these applications. The last thing I have to say is why on earth would you buy a license to an application suite that 95% of the students won't use? The OS ok, the MS Office ok, but Adobe's products? The school should have utilized free software. I don't mean no-cost software- they could and should have paid somebody for the free and open source software in order to make the software better fit the students needs. However- they chose to use a really bad proprietary solution that inhibits learning instead. This is why so many smart people hate school. I'm jealous of those smart students who have the guts to blow off higher education in the pursuit of learning rather than allow it to limit them. Unfortunately most smart people have to deal with the real world idiots who can't see beyond a peace of paper.

zing99
Sep 28, 2009 2:40 AM
Wow. Just another Microsoft Bitch! LOL ;) What would the world do without the United States and our OS! Bunch of losers!
kregg
Sep 28, 2009 6:32 AM
lol unhackable.
shdwsclan
Sep 28, 2009 7:22 AM
Wow....good try though.....

They said that a wipe doesn't matter, so that means they are using lojack and winders....

The problem with winders is that installs the lojack as a device and then does the security thing. All you have to do is install a crippled version of windows made with nlite or just go linux and virtualize.

There goes the shut-off security.

The bios can also be wiped and flashed with a non-lojack asset tagged bios....

As for the rfid, a $10 scanner will help you find it and remove it...

Security is all gone.....what a sad bunch.....


NumbNuts2009
Sep 28, 2009 11:15 AM
Have to agree with Graeme H & snowman & anyone else who thinks the govt has got it wrong. The article reads more like an advertisement, both for commercial vendors and the amateur attempt at security. No critical thought in the article - what a waste of time & effort.

All I read is incompetent IT skills & management: we (ie. the govt) know nothing about IT, so we gotta lock it down and hope no-one breaks it, and we'll just believe the vendors. A complete waste of public funds, an IT philosophy that is the complete antithesis of education (no freedom to learn or explore), and another sorry insight into the tragic lack of IT knowledge in the NSW DoE, its CIO and the article's author.

Education should be focussed on knowledge and exploration, _assisted_ by economic principles (of working with limited resources), rather than being run as a wannabe commercial enterprise. Shame on Stephen Wilson - all you needed to do was make a standard build, that's easily re-installable, and add anti-theft that's only accessible by the police, not some pseudo-big brother tracking. And shame on Brett Winterford - "Still you have to admit, this is a very well thought out roll-out." - what an embarassment. Only focussing on security, and ignoring the end result of a wasted opportunity - all the potential of technology limited to a typewriter and email tool, doing nothing to enhance education.

A classic example of (dubious) technicals triumphing over educational goals, and Stephen Wilson, Brett Winterford, et al, falling into the trap of only looking at IT, rather than organisational goals. An embarrassment to the role of the CIO.
MasterNetra
Sep 28, 2009 11:35 AM
http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=92 Cheaper still, and there is free alternative software to most of what Adobe has, Except for Flash pro, and After Effects...then again do High School Students really need those two?
tim1980
Sep 28, 2009 2:49 PM
This news makes me even more ashamed to be Australian!

I am dumbfounded by my governments stupidity :-(

This is a big loose of the FOSS community and a big win for the Dark Side of the force.


Slatts
Sep 28, 2009 6:03 PM
Can't argue with you there tim.
I'm ashamed that you're an Australian to.
;-)
anonymous
Sep 28, 2009 6:03 PM
I'm not at all ashamed to be Australian (let alone even more ashamed - come on), but I am bloody angry at what the most useless and corrupt government in the history of Australia has done.

This situation recalls the two great traditional cop-outs of corporate computing: "Nobody ever got fired for specifying Micro$oft", and "If we say we've locked down the system, nobody can criticise us for anything that happens". In your dreams.

Wonder if there have been any political sweeteners involved?
Slatts
Sep 28, 2009 6:07 PM
Hi anon, wasn't it, "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM"?
Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu)
Sep 28, 2009 9:05 PM
No, Slatts, the "Nobody ever got first for buying IBM" was an earlier generation. All of those people were in fact retrenched when IT shifted from mainframes to servers. Those managers were snuck out the back doors just as the 3270 dumb terminals were taken out to the loading dock.
It was the next generation of equally dim-witted purchasing managers who interpreted the saying as "... for buying M$" and they are SOON to be retrenched.
Separately, you noted "You [Graeme].. want the systems to run whatever the kiddies find of interest on the interwebs." I noted that my arguments were not PRO inappropriate content. You subsequently suggested that your "whatever the kiddies find of interest on the interwebs" should be interpreted as "eg programs". I think we'd have saved some time had you so limited the scope of your allegation at the outset.
But my argument is not even against having a 'standard installation'. I think there should be a really simple way to return the netbook to its initial ship condition. With Ubuntu that is really easy with a thumb drive that you put in the USB port and reboot, and the hard drive is re-established just as it was initially.
My problem is the conspiracy between the state and two corporations (which have significant market share in their respective markets) to exclude the use of competitive offerings, in clear violation of the TPA. Using M$ software to prevent non-approved or competitive software is simply unacceptable. It is not about support. I'd be happy to see a rule that if anyone wanted support, they had to first return the netbook to having only the approved apps. But that is a far weaker/fairer rule than altering BIOS to only allow what M$/DET approve. Anyway, I think the political pressure will be sufficient to remove the impediments (here I mean the relevant NetNazi bureaucrats, rather than any firmware/software barriers).
At a minimum, the netbook ought be able to be 'easily' re-booted into a non-DET environment, such as allowing a USB boot into Ubuntu, so those who seek enlightenment can attain a real education in the possibilities of open source and use of true standards, without the restriction of M$'s "embrace, enhance, extinguish" documented approach to undermining standards
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Documents).
If the netbook is running Linux, DET need not give it access to any M$ update servers etc. Arguably, DET should not stop access to 'the filtered internet', as surely web site access is not decided by M$, but rather available for the students. Any limitations as to what sites are available should be OS-independent... unless DET seeks to be seen as simply an arm of M$ marketing. But, in the worst case of DET staff claiming they cannot man the barricades unless they have their friends at M$ helping them, I could even live with the netbooks just working in a 'Linux reboot mode' at home, so students are not limited by DET rules when they are not even near a DET network or environment. A complete lock-down of the type proudly announced in this article will surely become an albatross around the neck of senior DET IT staff.

And even if DET like the M$ OS, there is no reason to go for lock-in to the M$ office suite as well... unless what I have said IS true... that it is a conspiracy to keep out competitive products.

The Open Office suite (www.openoffice.org) is BETTER than any version of M$ Office, and does not have any end-use date, or any required updates or mucking around with licence numbers etc. It also has a fantastic truly Aussie spell-checker etc etc. One cannot argue that it is better to put doco into M$' short-term-stable-only standards over truly open 100+year standards, like Open Text. One ought read the EU's 'Valoris Report' review of open document vs M$ Office formats: http://www.europa.eu.int/idabc/servlets/Doc?id=17982
Also the irregularities (read bribes) in getting M$ Office Open XML also approved as an ISO standard is well documented here: http://www.noooxml.org/irregularities
But the big issue is that the M$ formats are not truly independent of any one commercial organisation and controlled by an international standards committee, whereas Open Office does meet that requirement, and are owned and controlled by the world community.
Finally, many of Australia's international competitors are not so lumbering their commercial operations, but are training their kids in the free, open, standards-compliant, stable Open Office software... whereas we are keeping a $1b+ pa trade deficit running to simply pay for such licences, when no such offshore royalty payments are needed. That $1b/yr is not being paid by DET, but IS being paid by the country as a whole, so the Feds (who are paying for the PCs and DET's support of them) ought act in the national interest to push the netbooks to a national curriculum, using truly open ISO standards throughout.
divideoverflow
Sep 29, 2009 12:40 PM
Graeme,

You might want to reconsider your use of the dollar sign in your references to Microsoft. You ruin any credibility your arguments may have had. No one will take you seriously when your comments read like something posted in a web forum flame war by a teenager railing against the vast Microsoft/capitalist conspiracy. Open source software is wonderful, but rambling on like some crazed activist will only reinforce stereotypes about the FOSS community.

On another note, Open Office is not a competitive product when compared to Microsoft Office. Not with Sun killing it slowly by making developers jump through hoops to submit patches to the source, while at the same time slowly reducing the number of Sun employees contributing to the source.
Slatts
Sep 29, 2009 1:41 PM
Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) wrote:
No, Slatts, the "Nobody ever got first for buying IBM" was an earlier generation.

I'm from an earlier generation Graeme. ;-)
Maxxi
Sep 29, 2009 4:53 PM
Slatts is right on target here Graeme Harrison (who-ever you really are...)

I was involved in that tender process, as a Lenovo partner as well, as a software provider. Our bid was not successful, we lost, however all I can tell all of you is that there were extremely high levels of governance and probity controls during the whole process.

They have some seriously good people in this DET team under Wilson, who are working their butts off to fulfill the committments made and to put some critical changes through this difficult environment.

Why some of you are shooting at Wilson and his team without knowing them is a sad mystery to me. That amounts to personal slander and is a sad reflection on your side to do so.

Is the system perfect? No. Is it far better today than 3 years ago? Yes. Is it being transformed by the current team to better serve the students? Yes.

Did I win a contract? No. (Dang!) But I rspect the decisons based on reviewing the transition and migration realities. You are shooting empty straw if you are mouthing off at these guys (& ladies) without knowing the actual situation they are confronted with.

As for you Graeme, have you been briefed on the selection and trial/evaluation processes that they used, or are you making mass assumptions? I am sure, as a professor, that you would never make mass assumptions, correct?

I use Open Office and love it, great product, however I also know that MS is a reality in many environments and projects...

Yo Slatts, my apols for comment in other subject, you are indeed pretty level headed... >;))
Maxxi
Sep 29, 2009 4:59 PM
BTW Lenovo won, however not with their bid version including our app version... Sad but true. lol
Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu)
Sep 29, 2009 5:31 PM
Slatts, the test of being from the earlier generation is whether you still have a ruler, paperweight or other 'desk object' with "THINK" printed on it. These were the standard give-away items from IBM to EDP staff of the 1970s and 80s. Of course 80-column coding sheets, a EBCDIC character table or Cobol syntax book also qualify. I am also of the 'earlier generation', having been an EDP Manager at a time when that involved feeding the paper-tape into the Perkin Elmer minicomputer to get it to bootstrap itself. But I rejected the proprietary standards of the time, far prefering ASCII to EBCDIC, ANSI RS232 terminals to 3270 or 5250 twin-ax terminal comms, Pick's extended-ASCII database codes to proprietary formats. I became committed to micros when I was on the team of five that developed the original electronic spreadsheet (Visicalc - the visible calculator) at Harvard Business School in 1978. My classmate Dan Bricklin deserves all the credit, as it was his idea, and I was only on Design Review. Visicalc was copied to become Lotus 123 and thence Excel. In a later interview Jobs said that the two things which caused Apple to succeed were (a) the open (non-proprietary) bus of the Apple ][ and (b) Apple having Visicalc as an offering. I still remember EDP Managers in Australia in the mid-80s saying they were waiting for Lotus 123 to become available for their IBM mainframe before allowing the deployment of spreadsheets within their organisation. Who would want something that you could put into a permanent loop to run on the same computer as your ATM network? Those people who did not want to see the deployment of such apps are now long gone.
I also understand divideoverflow's view that I ought not use M$ as an abbrev for Microsoft... but frankly the people with the debilitating illness multiple sclerosis grabbed "MS" long before Microsoft came to the fore. The dollar sign just makes it clear you are not talking about the disease. I may come across as making an impassioned plea for openness, but with a Harvard MBA background, I have never railed against capitalism. For the past 30 years I've been associated with 'for profit' software and IT service companies. The trick with IT is always "to avoid re-designing the wheel"... we use existing standards/routines, from ASCII encoding, USB comms to HTML and ISO CD formats. Only people old enough to have lived through previous format wars understand how much we depend on standards to progress. But I have no issue with people making money by developing an application or service based on formats... but I do have an issue with forces designed to defeat the wide acceptance of standards.
You'll note that I never classed Adobe in the same category as M$, as Adobe have recently put their best-known proprietary format (PDF) into the public domain, as an ISO standard format. Adobe knew they needed to do so, as significant organisations could not risk having all of their archives in a proprietary format. PDF will now live on. Moreover, Adobe is not in the business of providing software designed to prevent competitive software becoming installed on the same PC.
Maxxi suggests I identify myself. My real name and my real email address is contained within my ID on this forum... I didn't think I was hiding anything! Maxxi also suggested I should not criticise unless I know the people. Well, my arguments are based solely on the proud boasts of the team. I object to the NetNazi approach (seeking to control everything) in concept, irrespective of whether these are nice people. My objection is inherent in the arrogance that they (the DET planners) will provide everything that any student might reasonably require on a PC through just their 'approved applications'. For example, why shouldn't a student be able to run a privately-purchased CD-ROM based language learning system at home. Or do they need to purchase a separate PC for that task?
Maxxi notes "I use Open Office and love it, great product, however I also know that MS is a reality in many environments and projects..." - sentiments with which I agree. However, that is the nub of the issue. School kids are NOT involved in other commercial projects, so it IS the perfect time to standardise them on the open/free/standards suite, rather than a proprietary equivalent. Use in schools is the point of initial lock-in. THAT is why it is priced at zero by M$. But surely staying non-proprietary outweighs all else in the education system, and even if M$ offers its equivalents for free, we should stick to the open true ISO standard approach. I would love to see the evaluation team's evaluation as to why a proprietary lock-in solution ought win over OpenOffice, which is free and non-proprietary... and every bit as good.
My pleas are seeking to prevent the DET IT staff from doing the full lock-down they are hoping to achieve. To ensure this, I will copy this material on to Verity Firth, the NSW Minister for Education, so that she understands the implications of using Federal funds to breach national competition policy and that the commercial arrangement with Microsoft constitutes a breach of the TPA. Moreover, I will point out that the last thing the Rees government needs is a further issue of public outrage over incompetence... and that when students and their parents alike realise how useless these netbooks have been made by virtue of them being on-handled by NSW DET, there will be outrage at the sheer waste. [By way of disclosure, I do not have any children in the NSW public school system.]
Maxxi
Sep 29, 2009 6:29 PM
Apologies Graeme if I seemed to be fishing for your live identity, not my intent.

Your forum ID here was just too good to be true...
Private Citizen
Sep 29, 2009 7:57 PM
My God a lot of people have been not been given their happy pills. Oh no the world is being taken over by MS Zombies lets all jump off skyscrapers - you first i will watch. The government is nothing but corporate sockpuppets - well whats new? DET are incompetent? - steady on.
Having been in the industry for over 25 years I have participated in some very large Standard Operating Environments, Universities, Utilities and Corporations.
Now I have a role as a TSO in the NSW D.E.R. project - so yes I am bit of a fan boy. This deployment is one of the best I have participated in.
This morning I rolled out 90 laptops (400+ so far) - the process was automated beautifully. It worked - it integrated with the NSW DET systems. The process is scripted , a student logs in using their DET account the computer get assigned to them in the inventory management system. Every student walked out with an identically configured netbook. A CIO's dream.
1. Proprietory software - NSW DET has used its buying power to get the software that most commercial environments will still be running when these students hit the higher learning or the workforce.
Look at the jobs pages - how many time does a job advert say must be proficient in MS-Office? A Helluva lot more than say "must be proficient in FOSS".
If you are afraid your kid is going to become a proprietory zombie because of a locked down netbook. Go and buy them something else.
NB. I do believe that it will be difficult for those whose software products didnt make it onto the netbooks SOE, but that is something the industry has to work on - not DET.
2. Why PC and not [Fanboybox]? Well perhaps because DET has an absolutely humongous base of PC computers. Anyone familiar with managing large environments knows a homogeneous environment cuts costs. Perhaps because most students entering the workforce are likely to be using a PC in the workplace.
3. The main misconception I see here is that respondents are unaware of what we are trying achieve.
In my opinion the goal is to provide a common platform between the students and the teachers. Where a teacher can have confidence that every students laptop will behave in an identical fashion when they ask them to follow the teacher's lesson plan.
In a 60 minute lesson we do not have the luxury of supporting little johnny who installed something last night that has uniquely changed his environment. Little johnny will just fall behind the class just the same as all of those kids before him who could never afford the common platform.
The teachers are there to effectively teach their subject matter - not computers. They will teach the students how their computers can improve their learning of the material. They are not there to teach the intricacies of every software package available for every platform available.
4. Unhackable - LOL. Ever tried to stop a teenager? It is the unspoken mission of every teenager to achieve freedom from adult repression. This generation are very well connected and will be creating blogs on their efforts - if they have not done so already.
As a TSO not only will I be working with the latest in commercially available software and equipment - I will constantly challenged by all of these students that are only able to challenge me because we gave them each a amply configured netbook. It is one of the best on-the-job training opportunities in the state.
5. The laptops are obvious visually, they have been custom coloured and clearly painted to highlight their security features. The street crims know these are not tradeable.
Very few students will risk voiding the warranty by modding the netbook. Voiding the warranty costs the student a pro rata of the replacement cost.
6. The D.E.R. Project infrastructure is very scalable way beyond the needs of most schools. The project has put a full time TSO into schools, and some schools are levering off those to improve their existing environments.
7. Some of the electorate believe these netbooks and the infrastructure are a waste of resources. So DET should be sure to get best possible combination of equipment and software for the least possible outlay, and then ensure that we maintain the environment for the least cost. The os / platform / software /environment / management strategies being discussed would cost more to implement and maintain - we just dont have the budget.
7. TSO , teachers and students have noted where the "NetNazi" has been too vicious and we lobby to see if our requests can be accommodated within the SOE. But we do benefit from knowing that whichever school we go to everything we know about the 30 or so installed applications is relevant. We have 30 apps we can specialise in for the next four years. *fantastic*
8. This project means that my nieces and nephews get a computer in year 9, something their parents could never afford - I dont mind spending my tax dollars on that.

So when you angrily write to your MP include the section of your resume where you have experience in managing large (>1000)computing environments, from purchasing, to configuring, to integrating and then supporting them. Until then you could be accused of talking out of your hat - if you are lucky.
Slatts
Sep 29, 2009 10:53 PM
In the mid 70s I was doing computer maths. It involved punching a program out on punch cards then punching the data for the program out on another stack in a cut down version of Fortran called Minitran, then sending the cards over to JCU to be run on their mainframe.
Is that previous generation enough Graeme?
And Maxxi? yes, I dribble evenly from both sides of my mouth.
;-)
Hi Private, I thought Graeme was a verbose bugger. Normally I just skim long posts, often to my detriment, no to mention embarrassment when I post about something I've not read properly, but in the case of this thread, I've hung off every word. Mostly.
It's been most educational for an old tradie from up North.
mck
Sep 30, 2009 3:23 AM
As a parent, and being in the situation to choose between sending my children to a:

- norwegian school that uses solutions that are open and free, and in the spirit of academic collaboration and research, and

- an australian school that seeks to lock children into proprietary commercial monopolies;

it shouldn't be a surprise this becomes a real determinant in the decision making.

It's a myth that there's a someone that can use microsoft environment and someone that can use a linux or mac environment.
Any linux or mac user will be at ease on a microsoft environment and will be an equal candidate to any job requiring proficiency in MS-Office. Unfortunately the reverse is not true, people that can use microsoft can become completely lost on a different platform.
[[ This is an intention strategy, ie an abstracted user interface, by microsoft and shouldn't come across as any surprise to anyone. One can see how the problem exaggerates when the same strategy is repeated to the more fundamental level of protocols and standards. ]]

But, speaking as a parent, what really blows my mind is how people can't seem to accept how serious it is for the australian government to undermine the principles of education system that is built upon free and shared knowledge. This has been compromised for some apparent short commercial and educational wins, most of which can be easily debunked.

Slatts
Sep 30, 2009 9:10 AM
Rubbish mck, you interview 2 job applicants.

Your business runs a MS Office 07 environment.

Do you hire the bloke who's spent his life with write / calc or the bloke who's equally qualified but spent his time with word / excel / access?

Any rational employer is going to take the bloke who'll hit the ground running.

Speaking as a parent, you're talking through your backside.
wjc
Sep 30, 2009 11:16 AM
Just Two Points and Mottos:
1. Remember the alleged motto of the Jesuit Order of the Catholic Church -
"Give me a child until he is seven and I shall give you the man." Actually, it has been the motto of the ICT industry for 50 years!

2. For Government and the public sector
"Monopoly GOOD, Competition BAD."
After all, that cost of education and training for developers, managers and users alike is large and ongoing. With an ICT monopoly choice, do it once (hopefully) and get great discounts on a one-time procurement contract!
Remember years ago that Governments set out to promote competition in the ICT industry via the "Government Open Systems Interconnection Profile" or "GOSIP" that MANDATED that all suppliers must meet open and published interface standards. BUT what happened? Nothing! Governments simply ignored their own mandated regulations in the name of cost reduction.
For example, politicians worldwide have been totally derelict in any form of regulation of the ICT industry preferring failed "free market" forces that have NEVER worked in relation to safety and security (remember seat belts, pool fences, office fire extinguishers, etc etc.)
mck
Sep 30, 2009 4:09 PM
Keep it cool Slatts. Trying to ridicule someone will only make yourself look bad.

I can say without doubt that if someone underneath me hired someone based on experience between write to word, or calc to excel, that I would do my best to fire that someone.

When hiring staff in an industry that reinvents itself every few years current experience is rather irrelevant to the ability to learn new systems. If there was a good criteria during any hiring interview it would be to intentionally sit the candidate in front of an application they had never used before and see how quick they are to adapt.

Speaking as a parent, i get a voice in the discussion equal to any other parent.
Sams
Sep 30, 2009 4:13 PM
Private Citizen: "NSW DET has used its buying power to get the software that most commercial environments will still be running when these students hit the higher learning or the workforce."

This is a conservative viewpoint often seen in government, and people that work with them, that stems from the self-fulfilling prophecy that we can't change yet, because we haven't changed yet. Thankfully some non-robotic people can see through this and progress happens eventually.

Slatts: "Your business runs a MS Office 07 environment. Do you hire the bloke who's spent his life with write / calc or the bloke who's equally qualified but spent his time with word / excel / access?"

I run a business using an OpenOffice environment. I'll warrant that there will be many more like it before long, if they are not already using SAASs like Google Docs instead, which is also on the cards. Really, the bulk of the difference between Word and OO is fairly trivial. Office regularly churns the GUI anyway ("ribbons" anyone?) so the argument about teaching the interface that they will be using when they join the workforce is just FUD.
Private Citizen
Sep 30, 2009 6:05 PM
I am not robotic - I am pragmatic and many who know me would laugh at the suggestion that I am conservative.
As I said before "I run a business using open office" is not the same "as I manage a corporate network that uses open office". In large scale we have different costs, different outcomes, more stakeholders.
DET uses MS-Office because it has HSC and TAFE courses which teach MS-Office. DET has a massive existing base of MS-Office. Universities teach teachers using MS-Office. Large business use MS-Office. IT staff learn MS-Office. Curriculums are written using MS-Office. Industry expects our graduates to be able to be use MS-Office. We dont just use it - it is integral to our whole business.
We have close to 500,000 users - if we moved away from MS-Office the costs involved in re-training students, staff and support staff, would represent an unnecessary expense without a significant return on investment.
Moving from Office 2003 to Office 2007 is incurring a training cost, changed GUI and all. But that training is staff development - the skillset will assist in their next job.
I have managed large networks since pre-windows environments. I have managed multiple O/S, multiple networking environments - I have a history of supporting legacy equipment. I am very adaptable - but many users are not. To many users, software is a tool for achieving their outcomes, so we teach them in the software that they will likely be using.
Visit 10 unrelated computers and which software would you expect to see?
Ask yourself, how many businesses in your market would be using open office? if your staff left your company what office suite will they probably be using in their next job? What software are their peers using right now? What software do they use at home?
Is your religious adoration of free software giving your staff a skillset they can use in their next job? or limiting them?
I use open office it is installed on my netbook. I have installed it on friends computers because they cant afford MS-Office. If I worked for a small organisation that could not afford MS-office I would create an SOE around it. But I dont, I work for one of the largest training organisations in the country.
As a student told me today, "I only have openoffice on my home computer, I am glad the laptops have real office on them." - that is good enough for me.
Private Citizen
Sep 30, 2009 7:44 PM
Oops - I forgot the standard disclaimers - I am merely employed as a D.E.R. TSO. All of my comments are personal opinion and not DET policy. I do not speak on behalf of my employer - understood? *phew*

You need to understand as a computer support employee, I need to keep my skillset full of experience with common software packages. My experience with office 2003 and Windows XP is dating really fast. This job gives experience with Windows 7 and office 2007, The Adobe suite is a bonus.
Every netbook is configured identically and the infrastructure installed consistently across the whole state. I could work in any school in the state. This gives over 700 TSOs' amazing job portability within DET.
By the time my contract expires many companies will have started their deployments of win7 and MS Office (?) I expect to have those desired skillsets.
Sams
Sep 30, 2009 8:06 PM
Private Citizen: "I am not robotic - I am pragmatic and many who know me would laugh at the suggestion that I am conservative."

The most probable explanation for that is that they don't understand the meaning of the word "conservative" as it applies to policy. People mired in their own prejudices invariably believe that they are being 'practical' or 'pragmatic', or following 'common sense' or 'obvious' trains of thought.

Private Citizen: "Is your religious adoration of free software giving your staff a skillset they can use in their next job? or limiting them?" [sic]

You seem to be repeating yourself, albeit with added appeal to ridicule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule). I have already explained why this is FUD in my previous post. My two year old daughter can already launch programs from desktop icons, draw pictures, undo actions, save files, answer dialog box questions (although she can't read them yet obviously) and restart the program. I'm pretty sure she will find the Windows desktop much the same at the Ubuntu one. I expect this generation of school age and adult persons to be quite capable of adapting between fundamentally similar Office Suites.

Private Citizen: "As a student told me today, "I only have openoffice on my home computer, I am glad the laptops have real office on them." - that is good enough for me."

Sounds pithy enough to be a Microsoft advertisement. So you found one student that agreed with you. Surely you must know that, statistically, N=1 is not considered to be a very good sample size.
Sams
Sep 30, 2009 8:08 PM
Private Citizen: "You need to understand as a computer support employee, I need to keep my skillset full of experience with common software packages." ... "This gives over 700 TSOs' amazing job portability within DET."

So really it about protecting your own job interests then?
snowman
Oct 1, 2009 5:37 AM
At the end of the day I suppose the appropriateness of this bundle must be measured against the goals of the schools.

If the goal is to stock the cubical farms in the CBD then they've done a bang up job... but those jobs are disappearing overseas at an alarming rate... I'm sure Private Citizen will be delighted when their job proves so portable that it is being done from Mumbai for a fraction of the price.

If the goal is to stimulate the brains of young people then this collection of software is well wide of the mark... I mean seriously, iTunes?

How about some simple software dev tools? Surely it's not possible to 'teach' computers without introducing people to at least a simple scripting language... now there is a job skill that will go straight to market. When I did computers in high school (early 80s) it was all about using the computer as a creative tool rather than merely an appliance that helps with page layout.

Who wants to bet that the curriculum "we already have" was actually supplied by the vendors as sugar for the deal? It's a no brainer that putting together course material once in Redmond and then offering it school districts all over the world as part of the bundle has got to be a strong lure and a sound investment as it's an additional opportunity to control the message to a captive audience, and an audience that has an incentive to comply (good grades).
Sams
Oct 1, 2009 8:36 AM
snowman wrote: "I'm sure Private Citizen will be delighted when their job proves so portable that it is being done from Mumbai for a fraction of the price."

Assuming that in the future, Mumbai won't be outsourcing to us :-) But then of course they will be looking for OpenOffice skills
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39199972,00.htm
Slatts
Oct 1, 2009 11:30 AM
snowman wrote:
If the goal is to stimulate the brains of young people then this collection of software is well wide of the mark... I mean seriously, iTunes?


OH MY GOD! They've got iTunes on them!?
Somebody will swing for this!

snowman wrote:
How about some simple software dev tools? Surely it's not possible to 'teach' computers without introducing people to at least a simple scripting language... now there is a job skill that will go straight to market. When I did computers in high school (early 80s) it was all about using the computer as a creative tool rather than merely an appliance that helps with page layout.


How about VBA? does that count as a scripting language?

Any fool can record a VBA macro but to write one from scratch or even to modify a recorded one takes skill and a modicum of training. Would that be creative enough for you snowman?

And while we're on the subject of macros, they're a bit of a deal breaker for those who want the world to move to OpenOffice. Companies spend large amounts of time and effort setting up macros to automate their office applications. I don't think they'd be too quick to chuck it all out and start again.

If nothing else, Office has momentum. It has a huge support base and user base.

It's not just going to disappear because a vocal minority like something warm, cuddly, politically correct and open source.

But I HATE iTunes with a passion.
Private Citizen
Oct 1, 2009 12:02 PM
Once again there is a misconception that the purpose of the HSc is to create computing genii. It is not. The schools teach a curriculum and the schools teach a set of common computer operations that can aid in the learning. It happens that DET use the market dominant software packages to consistently teach these operations.

The students at my school that choose the computing elective do not get stuffed into battery cages and force fed Microsoft. They get to install all sorts of operating systems and software, linux, osx, etc. They even get to install some defunct operating systems that add to the depth of their knowledge. Those students will be capable of competing in a computing support environment.

From what I can see DET is not the issue it is Microsoft. “The evil empire flexing its market domination”. All these critics benefit from the benefit of the www as a common platform (no tears for BBS, gopher or network news). But DET should not be allowed to use a common platform to teach or for its own operations. DET should let its user base follow its nose on the software it installs and then create multiple training and support chains depending on whether package A is installed alongside package B or package C. What a waste of resource.

Then we have the Anti PC lobby who believe DET should have purchased their preferred platform. One could argue that the manufacturer of that platform seems more concerned with mobile phones and media players.

Don’t worry about my job portability, I have used zx81, wombats, apple II, c64 amiga, macs, pc-xt through to core i7. I use to specialise in freeware, netware, perfect office and groupwise. AmigaOS, Dos, Primos, Unix, linux, all flavours of windowing software since someone copied Xerox. I am very adaptable. I am employed and I make hay while the sun shines. I will worry about open office when the market goes that path, but I doubt I will ever be proficient enough in Tamil or Hindi to support it.

Oh am I realy sorry about i-Tunes. I would not have done it. But this generation of students use i-tunes, it has not been uncommon for students to transfer the DRM licences to their netbooks. And someone would sue DET if we didnt include the most dominant DRM package - Damn evil Apple *boo* *hiss*

The point of debating is to attack the argument not the person. Sticks and stones may break my bones but your personal attacks give tin foil hat wearers a bad name :-)
D2011
Oct 1, 2009 1:31 PM
I agree with Private Citizen & Slatts.

First we have the anti pc lobby who think the computers should be supplied by some guy in his backyard so that its not some corporate giant stamping their authority on the project.

Then there is the anti Microsoft crowd headed by Graeme who was burnt bad in business by the man & is making it his lifes mission to steer everyone towards open source OS's & software no matter how little sense it makes or how impractical it is, just get it in there, lets worry about the consequences later. Somehow Graeme, you managed get all the way through uni without ever discovering paragraphs.

Then there is the Liberal voters who just want to lash out at anything Labor like "anonymous", so naturally, they would prefer no computers, no NBN, no OS's.....unless of course the Liberals are in Government & decide to do it. Then miraculously it will be genius.

What a privileged society that we live in that is argueing the toss over what computer kids get, what os they get & the manner in which they deploy it.
Sams
Oct 1, 2009 1:54 PM
"It's not just going to disappear because a vocal minority like something warm, cuddly, politically correct and open source."

Don't forget to add "ethical, sensible and flexible".

Historically, things like slavery were dealt a death blow by vocal minorities. They just happened to be smart and convincing as well. They are called 'leaders', the rest are called 'sheep'.

Slatts
Oct 1, 2009 2:16 PM
Oh sams, your irrefutable logic has born fruit!

I bow to your leadership greatness.

lead me to the sheering shed mate.

You are truly a paragon of righteousness. I promise to change my evil corporate slave ways.

roflmao.
snowman
Oct 1, 2009 4:13 PM
"How about VBA? does that count as a scripting language?"

No, it is a lock-in tool. I would be happy with Logo.. the idea being not to undermine what the computer electives are trying to do but simply expose large numbers of people to the idea that software is what drives these things and that software is something built by people... demystifying them. This no different to school courses that talk about automotives, or pottery, or any number of things where the goal is to put kids in touch with how the world around them works. Only a small number of kids will go on to be mechanics or potters but it's easy to understand why broad experience is valuable.

"If nothing else, Office has momentum"

Not so much, no, not if momentum implies motion or progress anyway, what it has is incumbency. Much as with IE they have achieved such saturation that the need to innovate has gone. Only when threatened do they make a bit of progress.

Hey, what ever happened to this... just a bargaining tactic perhaps?

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/FE73A77E2BB96F21CC257425007DCB21

After reading this is it any wonder that we can't trust any of this as being above board?

A very on-topic story from yesteryear from one of the most brilliant physicists of our time, Richard Feynman.

http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm

There is no doubt that this netbook deal is the exact same vendor shuck-n-jive as Feynman describes.

"Oh sams, your irrefutable logic has born fruit!"

Ad hominem at Sams helps you no more than Graeme's use of 'M$'. Sams is right, meaningful change only happens when a small number of people convince a large number of people to change. In cases where the crowd drives the system you end up with populist politics and terrible short term solutions.
Slatts
Oct 1, 2009 5:00 PM
Private Citizen wrote:
Once again there is a misconception that the purpose of the HSc is to create computing genii. It is not. The schools teach a curriculum and the schools teach a set of common computer operations that can aid in the learning. It happens that DET use the market dominant software packages to consistently teach these operations.

The students at my school that choose the computing elective do not get stuffed into battery cages and force fed Microsoft. They get to install all sorts of operating systems and software, linux, osx, etc. They even get to install some defunct operating systems that add to the depth of their knowledge. Those students will be capable of competing in a computing support environment.


Thought that needed repeating.

snowman wrote:
"If nothing else, Office has momentum"

Not so much, no, not if momentum implies motion or progress anyway, what it has is incumbency. Much as with IE they have achieved such saturation that the need to innovate has gone. Only when threatened do they make a bit of progress.


momentum as in a huge body of users moving in unison. I'd have said 07 was pretty innovative.
The .docx format can be opened by anyone.
The interface has completely changed, most say for the better, though after years of Office since 95 and my personal momentum I may have a different opinion.
The only threat to MS Office was the previous version. And now10 is on the horizon.

snowman wrote:
"Oh sams, your irrefutable logic has born fruit!"

Ad hominem at Sams helps you no more than Graeme's use of 'M$'. Sams is right, meaningful change only happens when a small number of people convince a large number of people to change. In cases where the crowd drives the system you end up with populist politics and terrible short term solutions.


Er yes.. my 17 year old son chipped me about that.
Told me I was being childish.

.......Sorry Sams...

...Doesn't mean I agree with you but..
snowman
Oct 1, 2009 6:26 PM
"The schools teach a curriculum and the schools teach a set of common computer operations that can aid in the learning."

If the software was matlab so that the tedium of drawing graphs on paper is eliminated or a virtual chemistry lab is provided to allow experiments that would be expensive or impractical otherwise then yes... that goal would be met. However, an office suite (even OO) is no more helpful to an English student than a calculator is to someone trying to learn arithmetic... which is to say no use at all. You don't learn to add if you just punch numbers into a machine and hit equals, you don't learn to spell if you just wait for the spell checker to tell you what's wrong.

"The students at my school that choose the computing elective do not get stuffed into battery cages and force fed Microsoft"

Ah, thanks for repeating that, I meant to deal with this in my last post. Seems to imply that the students that do not choose the elective are, in fact, stuffed into battery cages and force fed Microsoft.

"momentum as in a huge body of users moving in unison"

Yeah, as in, "that flock of sheep has a huge momentum, better not get in it's way or we run the risk of getting squashed". The simple mathematical fact is that Office had nearly 100% of the market (after bullying corel and others out of the market). Now we're seeing large institutions (both public and private) shifting away. This trend will continue. Legal requirements for future proofing document accessibility are driving a lot of this.

If those that body of people had ended up on Office because the selection process was based on merit then this would be a good thing... but in this case we're talking about the products of a company that has been found guilty on numerous occasions and in numerous jurisdictions of every kind of market abuse on the books. Achieving dominance under those circumstances is something to be reviled, not encouraged.

As for .docx format... read up on EMCA/MSOOXML and the perversion of the ISO certification process and get back to me if you think anyone could possibly implement that 'standard'. It is, as we say in the industry, defective by design.

Good chat though... thanks for the spirited debate.
Sams
Oct 1, 2009 6:45 PM
Slatts wrote: "Oh sams, your irrefutable logic has born fruit!" ... "..Sorry Sams... ...Doesn't mean I agree with you but.."

That's OK because you mistakenly used the word "born" (to give birth) instead of "borne" (to bear/carry) which made it quite amusing, at least to my imagination at least.
Slatts
Oct 1, 2009 7:50 PM
snowman wrote:
If the software was matlab so that the tedium of drawing graphs on paper is eliminated or a virtual chemistry lab is provided to allow experiments that would be expensive or impractical otherwise then yes... that goal would be met. However, an office suite (even OO) is no more helpful to an English student than a calculator is to someone trying to learn arithmetic... which is to say no use at all. You don't learn to add if you just punch numbers into a machine and hit equals, you don't learn to spell if you just wait for the spell checker to tell you what's wrong.


By the time a kid reaches high school they should be able to spell, add, subtract, multiply and divide. Word processors and calculators and for that matter spreadsheets should be a productivity tool.
I personally live and die by my spell chequer.
As Sams seems to have noticed.
As for additional software for specialised subjects, I agree it'd be good but a line has to be drawn or support becomes too unwieldy. (A bit like this post when I checked it ;-))

snowman wrote:
"The students at my school that choose the computing elective do not get stuffed into battery cages and force fed Microsoft"

Ah, thanks for repeating that, I meant to deal with this in my last post. Seems to imply that the students that do not choose the elective are, in fact, stuffed into battery cages and force fed Microsoft.


I think your pulling a very long bow there snowman.

snowman wrote:
"momentum as in a huge body of users moving in unison"

Yeah, as in, "that flock of sheep has a huge momentum, better not get in it's way or we run the risk of getting squashed". The simple mathematical fact is that Office had nearly 100% of the market (after bullying corel and others out of the market). Now we're seeing large institutions (both public and private) shifting away. This trend will continue. Legal requirements for future proofing document accessibility are driving a lot of this.

If those that body of people had ended up on Office because the selection process was based on merit then this would be a good thing... but in this case we're talking about the products of a company that has been found guilty on numerous occasions and in numerous jurisdictions of every kind of market abuse on the books. Achieving dominance under those circumstances is something to be reviled, not encouraged.
As for .docx format... read up on EMCA/MSOOXML and the perversion of the ISO certification process and get back to me if you think anyone could possibly implement that 'standard'. It is, as we say in the industry, defective by design.

Good chat though... thanks for the spirited debate.


Like it or not, MS Office is the dominant player in the workplace.
It will remain the dominant player for some years yet.
The work place wants chair fodder that can hit the desk running.
The education system has to skill the students for this workspace.
Bills boys may not always play fair. They may have acquired the odd competitor by dubious means. They may even have acquired the odd standards board.
But they own the workspace.
If the education department didn't teach kids to use their products they (DET) would be failing in their duty to the kids and the employers.

Thanks snow, I've enjoyed it to.

And hey! they're giving kids laptops!

Maxxi
Oct 1, 2009 8:22 PM
So it ends up being a simple question:

Is DET and the notebook project responsible for student's learning specific apps, or supporting with their technology assisted learning and preparation for the workforce? And all that within a budget?

There are aspects about Microsoft that drive me nuts, high levels of frustration...

Do I throw it all off my systems and replace it..?

Nope, I have a job to do as does the company I work with.

Do I have Open Office on this PC at home? Yep, and I like it, and hope it will one day grow to be a maonstream replacement for MS Office.

Should 250,000 approx kids in NSW schools get OpenOffice in order to somehow accelerate this process, or support open source, or blight MS? Or prove it is better today?

No, and what dill would propose that...?

Get as qualified as Wilson, get as good as his team ( and do not start on them folks, I know some of them professionally), work your nuts off and get to that level of responsibility and then do a better job.

That is the way to introduce real change.

Cool feedback Private Citizen, local intelligence from the trenches is very valuable...

In the meantime, go Open Office!!
snowman
Oct 1, 2009 8:29 PM
"It will remain the dominant player for some years yet."

Ah, until when? Until people extract themselves and that process has to start somewhere... won't somebody please think of the children! :)

"The work place wants chair fodder that can hit the desk running."

They certainly do... they can pay a TAFE for that or start a private high school and pay the fees of the students... but their interests should have no bearing on what happens at my children's school.

"The education system has to skill the students for this workspace."

They certainly don't... that's vocational training. High school, and all grade school for that matter, is about learning how to learn. The actual material itself is largely unimportant provided that it's not also being used as an indoctrination tool.

"Bills boys may not always play fair. They may have acquired the odd competitor by dubious means. They may even have acquired the odd standards board."

No may about it, they are constantly in trouble and it's not just tall poppy syndrome and patent trolls taking swipes at them. This reminds me of the C.S. Lewis quote:

Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under
robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber
barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point
be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will
torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their
own conscience.

So I guess we should be grateful to Bill.

"If the education department didn't teach kids to use their products they (DET) would be failing in their duty to the kids and the employers."

The DET has absolutely ZERO duty to possible future employers... their only duty should be to the kids, that loyalty must be indivisible otherwise motive always comes into question... the kids are the raison d'etre for having a school... it is not supposed to be a profit centre for opportunistic corporations.
snowman
Oct 1, 2009 8:44 PM
"No, and what dill would propose that...?"

Me... and apparently Mr. Wilson just a year ago but that appears to have been just a threat to get a better deal.

"Get as qualified as Wilson"

And what qualifications are those? I dug around the DET web site in the hopes of finding CVs for these powerful public servents but found nothing... I'll just bet he's an MSCIE. I just read this article in the hopes of getting a hint.

http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,,23234699-24169,00.html

And was horrified to see this:

"The department will replace its school email contract with Unisys"

Please please please tell me that they didn't shovel another ton of money at MicroSoft for Exchange licenses and have instead gone Zimbra or Castle.

Sams
Oct 1, 2009 9:01 PM
"It will remain the dominant player for some years yet."

The students will be student for some years yet. Also, don't forget the effect of burgeoning SAAS, virtual desktops & cloud computing.

"So it ends up being a simple question:" ...

No, that was a simple strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman). Questions of politics of this nature are complex and subtle, but not simple.
Private Citizen
Oct 1, 2009 10:12 PM
Snowman and Sams, you are aware that DET stands for Department of Education and Training, that includes NSW TAFE the largest tertiary and vocational training organisation in Australia?
Students usually move from secondary school to TAFE, Uni or the workplace. There is no finishing school that pops up in between and goes hey we need to teach you MS-Office now.
Also DET email contracts _might_ involve a third party running ms-exchange farms for them. 1.3 million email users is a sizeable contract and it would go through a competitive tender process.
DET are so large that they do not have to shovel additional buckets at microsoft. DET do not spread their dollars across differing software packages that nearly do identical things, they use their buying power and probably get inclusive licence fees so low it would amaze you. Big business do the same thing - they buy Ms-office at a fraction of the retail price. That is why MS-Office is everywhere. But then if you have managed or participated in a large computing environment you would be aware of that.
Sams "Questions of politics of this nature are complex and subtle, but not simple." - but you expect the numerous and non elected people at DET to ignore prevailing market forces and make a decision that aligns with your political opinion.
Why comment at all if you are just going to take a snippet out of context and attach a conspiracy to it or merely add a personal attack. Show your reasoning.
All I can see is your passion for your point of view but I am learning nothing to convince me to reconsider the systems you are zealously advocating. Nothing to indicate that it will provide an advantage over what DET are using now.
Sams
Oct 1, 2009 11:45 PM
"you are aware that DET stands for Department of Education and Training"

I have some idea seeing as I took some time out from industry to be a lecturer for a few years. Albeit in another state, I'm quite aware of the results of current high school education strategies.

"but I am learning nothing to convince me to reconsider the systems you are zealously advocating"

A debate is always about the viewers, not the opponent. And I assure you they are learning, even if you aren't. The more shrewd ones will notice that you keep ignoring certain points made by others, and instead just keep parroting the same tired dogma.

My work here is done.
Sams
Oct 1, 2009 11:47 PM
Oh, except to mention this:

http://www.osnews.com/story/22268/AdMob_iPhone_Android_webOS_Gain_Others_Lose

so let's add mobile platforms to SAAS, virtual desktops & cloud computing.
Sams
Oct 1, 2009 11:49 PM
PS: and netbooks.
Private Citizen
Oct 2, 2009 12:20 AM
I cant believe I have spent a week passively defending microsoft. I stand by statements on their suitability for this project.

I would just like to reaffirm my street cred, by jumping up and down - screaming "Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and "All of this has happened before and will happen again" (- Battlestar Galactica).

I wonder if we all abandoned MS en masse and jumped to open source wont we just be killing one monopolistic monster for another.

Take browser wars its like a rally for a two party system - Explorer vs. Firefox then somewhere up the back everyone else. If explorer lost tomorrow, packed up and went home Large organisations could not bear the uncertainty of not being able to demand an answer from a vendor. They would pay money for the supported version of the open source program. They would choose the one with the largest user base so to limit training and ensure a supply of support staff. Next thing we know the new player becomes the next big evil.
I remember when we would await MS DOS versions because they bought a technology and added it to the O/S. I used Sidekick until they added task switching in MSDOS 5.0. I cant remember the disk defragger I used to use. Nortons for fixing diskerrors until MSDOS 6.22.
They got large because we loved the features we gave them our money. They took our money and aggregated an empire.
We got onboard en masse as the os absorbed features and wiped out markets that use to compete to provide those features. Microsoft got so large from our money that every time it adds a technology it cops an anti trust suit. But every operating system adds technologies otherwise we are just handing over money for patches and some new desktop pictures.
So to summarize we all jump from ms office to open office, business would pay top dollar for the supported version - staroffice. Then Sun becomes the microsoft killer. They get all of the money that anybody is willing to pay - they aggregate a new empire. And they get the antitrust suits every time they add a feature to a new operating system. But there may be less developers to file suit because few users will pay for developers product.
I suppose the lesson I see here is that microsoft, evil as it is, has provided such a large market that there is room for all of us to make a living, even those offering free product. But just dont expect large organisations to follow because they need the certainty of a warranty and the knowledge that they can bully the support out of vendor if need be as part of a contractual arrangement.
Open office gives me a free pdf writer, whose pdf writer? cool I dont need that free pdf writer from vendor x - de ja vu anyone?
Sams
Oct 2, 2009 7:35 AM
"I wonder if we all abandoned MS en masse and jumped to open source wont we just be killing one monopolistic monster for another."

No it won't. This classic closed source /open source FUD is discussed elsewhere, ad nauseum. If its open source, you can easily get third party support without the blessing of the vendor. In the event of an unfriendly vendor, other vendors can fork the software ... etc. etc. Let's not cover all that well trodden ground again.

Maybe stick to the topic and maybe stop ignoring the points raised, such as:

* the fact that MS changes their GUI regularly, so training students for their current GUI doesn't achieve much at all

* OpenOffice in most ways is only trivially different from Word suite (annoyingly so these days), and our current crop of students will have not trouble working with them interchangeably (I know a computer illiterate people that have no problem with this)

* other platforms are rapidly coming into play: SAAS, virtual desktops, cloud computing, mobile platforms and networks, many of which don't support MS; MS has been almost wiped out on high-end mobile platforms for example.

I'm starting to think DET stands for Dinosaur Environment Training.
Sams
Oct 2, 2009 8:44 AM
(SAAS, virtual desktops, cloud computing, mobile platforms and *netbooks* I mean)
Private Citizen
Oct 2, 2009 9:16 AM
I am starting to think that Sams will never let anyone have the last word. But this time he has arguable points, good to see you are getting into the spirit of things. mind you we are probably the down to four pundits battling this discussion out for ever.

The MS GUI appears to have changed to reflect newer technologies mainly touch screen, the last site I installed used 110 touchscreen computers - it is very difficult to select file open with a fingertip. So the ribbon seems to give a larger target surface for touching.

To be fair MS didnt change significantly from its windows 3 software interface greatly for nearly 20 years. eg, file open, Tools options. Sure they added a start button then relocated and redecorated it a few times. But essentially the same GUI. Now we need an OS
that uses the new hardware features and those features are supported in it next os (no one mention Vista).

As if the rest of the world is any different - GUI for linux anyone? do you still use finder 1.0 on your OSX box? And why is open office annoying similar to MS-Office - because they change their GUI.

And lets mention Vista, all of us corporate sockpuppets didnt jump into bed on that one. We looked at and went it provides the same features a different GUI and we need new hardware - No thanks. Windows 7 will only be considered because hardware has finally caught up and we can benefit from some of hardware features.

If openoffice / star office is insignificantly different from msoffice. why change? For a large organisation like DET there is no such thing as a hostile vendor - they are extremely friendly otherwise we buy our licences from someone else. That will ruin any vendors staff xmas party. And big business use the same muscle.

Other platforms coming into play. So will you get your cloud time from uncle bob garage networks or a major vendor? Oh I not using evil microsoft i am using a free software from Google or Sun Microsystems - yeah thats a win for the little people. You dont think Google will profit from Chrome or Android?
If a large corporate subsidises its free software through its commercial operations how is that not "dumping" - how does that help the small developer?

Your major problem with open source is simply this, no single open source vendor can provide the warranties necessary to secure a large tender. DET offers a tender, who from open source can prove they have the operations, experience and customer base to meet its warranty obligations?
If software company goes belly up - large corporates arrange escrow agreements to access and maintain the source code, but few companies get large by choosing products that do not have the warrantied support.
The fact that anyone with a car boot can provide support for an open source application does not fill any CIO with confidence.
Open source has its market, universities, enthusiasts, not for profit organisations and small to medium businesses. Unless a open source killer app comes along then closed source vendors will always take the top end of the market.

Yeah I could be described as a dinosaur - I have survived a few epochs but I have avoided the tar pits by watching the dinosaurs before me such as MSX, Ashton Tate, IBM and Wordperfect.

Now would would you like to argue the 30 or so points that I have made or do you want to launch another personal attack? Oh adding a link is not arguing, you must present the argument consisely hopefully in your own words.

Sockpuppets rule :-)
Sams
Oct 2, 2009 11:26 AM
Private Citizen: "I am starting to think that Sams will never let anyone have the last word. But this time he has arguable points."

I made exactly the same points in my very first post on this thread. And twice more.

"As if the rest of the world is any different"

Exactly, so your initial think-of-the-children argument that started with "Look at the jobs pages" is bunk.

"And why is open office annoying similar to MS-Office - because they change their GUI."

Perhaps you haven't used OO, so we can forgive this error. The reason it is annoying it because over time it emulated some of the more annoying idiosyncrasies of Word, such as intrusive autocorrection. (Yes you can turn it off - average Word/OO users don't know this though.)

"If openoffice / star office is insignificantly different from msoffice. why change?"

You are confusing the point: I said the user interface was not significantly different. The advantages of open source, and not dealing with an unethical vendor, and not propping up an embrace and strangle monopoly, are still there.

"Other platforms coming into play."

I note that you convenienty ignore the other platforms I mention and concentrate on cloud. Cloud can be supplied by any number of vendors, and can support open software SAAS. THe point is the environment is not likely to be what the kid are learning.

"You dont think Google will profit from Chrome or Android?"

Of course they will - what is your point. Its called running business. Chrome and Android are open source BTW.

"Your major problem with open source is simply this, no single open source vendor can provide the warranties necessary to secure a large tender."

Oh rubbish. Or has been done by other governments. Its just our government is not equipped/flexible/knowledgeable enough to cope.

"The fact that anyone with a car boot can provide support for an open source application does not fill any CIO with confidence."

More open source FUD - see elsewhere for a thorough debunking. You clearly have no idea how most open source project operate.

" Oh adding a link is not arguing, you must present the argument consisely hopefully in your own words."

Ever heard of references? I'm sorry you didn't get the point (even though I have mentioned it two or three times already). The point was that MS market share on high-end mobile platforms has been decimated and is still dropping. Given that these devices are likely to become ubiquitous, I added these to the list of platform as one of the items that counters the unimaginative argument that the workforce will be steeped in MS technology and we need to teach it to students for them to be employable - but there again we already debunked that on, as per above.
snowman
Oct 2, 2009 12:50 PM
"But then if you have managed or participated in a large computing environment you would be aware of that."

I have a leading technical role in the largest facility of it's kind in the southern hemisphere with a compute farm that is one of the largest in the world (in private industry)... I'm reasonably qualified to discuss these issues.

Doesn't really matter though, our money has been spent... and perhaps that's what galls me more. If you're going to buy 250,000 machines wouldn't it make way more sense to source them locally? At least the gov't would get a good chunk of that back in tax. Shipping bags of money to China for hardware and the US for software licenses is not doing much to stimulate the local economy.
Private Citizen
Oct 2, 2009 1:39 PM
Does anybody still care about this discussion? I have faceplanted Sams so many times but he keeps getting up again and firing retorts. Full points for tenacity.

My job pages comment is still valid as the proportion of jobs available requiring MS-Office skills still outweighs jobs that want other office suites.

Well Microsoft just gained a significant proportion of the netbook market. If only open source met the tender requirements. One of the commentators was an open source tenderer and he suggested the process was above board. But I suppose he is disregarded as a plant.

In any event MS-Office is so prevalent within DET you would really need a stand out product to compete.

I have heard of references but you submit an opinion and then add a reference. Dont expect a reference to fight your argument.

And snowman so you are aware of the competitive pricing structures for Microsoft Enterprise and Select programs?

Does anybody have a link of local vendor who can supply 200,000 netbooks for about $500 a piece with similar security features, in the available timeframe with a support network that allows them to provide warranty support for every school in the state. Then ask them why didnt they tender? which country was the technology made in? or was it a bundling of overseas manufactured equipment?

Cool another large system administrator, so is your environment open source? which industry does your farm output to? What applications are used to interact with the farm?
Sams
Oct 2, 2009 3:50 PM
"Does anybody still care about this discussion? I have faceplanted Sams so many times but he keeps getting up again and firing retorts. Full points for tenacity."

Sounding a little bit shrill now aren't we? Your comment is about as winning as a politician during an election debate jumping up and down saying "I win! I win! I win!" and blowing a raspberry. The rest of your 'material' is the same old rubbish reheated. Moving on now.

snowman
Oct 2, 2009 6:16 PM
"so is your environment open source?"

The server farm and most user workstations are linux, it's faster (so we get more bang for the buck) more stable (less downtime on maint) and cheaper (by lots) than the windows system that we extracting ourselves from about 2yrs ago. There was a lot of trepidation in this shift (largely caused by MS salesforce telling our mgt that we were making a mistake) but now that we're out of it we're very happy with the result and we wonder why it took so long to make the leap. The small fraction that is not linux is to support highly specialized applications that are only available on other platforms.

One thing I can say for sure is that when we interview potential employees we DO NOT ask them if they know Office or OO, that's irrelevant. They just need to be non-stupid and we'll train them from there and office suite training amounts to nil as non-stupid people can adapt to one or the other just as a Ford driver can pilot a Falcon and vice versa.

It should be noted that at least 1/2 of our workforce are foreign nationals... we'd like to hire local talent but unfortunately the education system here does not produce qualified candidates. Sad really because the average wage at our office is at least twice the national average... lots of plumb jobs going begging. So the 'T' in DET is not meeting our needs.

"which industry does your farm output to"

Without outing myself it's hard to answer that question... but it's safe to say that virtually every person in the civilized world (and parts of Australia too) regularly consumes the output of our farm... and I don't mean in an indirect way either, our work product goes straight to consumers on a mass scale.

Anyhow, I must sign off this thread now as we've wandered way off topic... here is your big chance to get the last word and therefore 'win' the argument :)
anonymous
Oct 2, 2009 7:12 PM
OK, lets get back on topic. The issue is the policy of the NSW government. Not the actions of the public service, not the never ending pro M$/anti M$ debate (and M$ is a perfectly legitimate usage unless you are part of the evil empire ;-))

So, D2011, saying that the NSW government are somewhat deficient does not make me "a Liberal voter who just wants to lash out at Labor". I'm not. I'm just a NSW resident who watches in dismay as the state government repeatedly rises to new heights of stupidity with predictable frequency.

The key issue, which may have become overlooked, is that the government is making claims about the perfection of its rollout which any IT professional will, or should, know cannot be achieved.
crysis
Oct 2, 2009 11:25 PM
I've been waiting for someone to state the obvious, but as no one has yet - there isn't a system the government can come up with that the kids can't crack and beat - give it a month and the first cracks will be appearing and by the end of the first year a majority of the students won't have any restrictions at all.
Sams
Oct 3, 2009 10:44 AM
I wonder if Google Docs (with Google Gears for offline work) was considered as a potential productivity suite, not that I have much experience of them.
D2011
Oct 5, 2009 9:37 AM
Anonymous : "So, D2011, saying that the NSW government are somewhat deficient does not make me "a Liberal voter who just wants to lash out at Labor". I'm not "

you said "but I am bloody angry at what the most useless and corrupt government in the history of Australia has done."

You never mentioned anything to do with NSW gov in your first 2 posts & considering its a Federal Governemnt roll out & the NSW Government are only trying to lock it down it stands to reason you are "lashing out" because of your political stance. Sure, they havent a chance of being able to lock the laptops down 100% but are you knocking NSW for even attempting to lock them down? Or the Federal Government for wanting kids to have laptops or what? You dont offer any input or advice, just criticism.

You also mention "centrist fads". If you deem a particular political persuasion "useless & corrupt" & use terma like "centrist fads", it leaves no doubts as to where your political beliefs lie.

Hence why I say that in observers of your political persuasion you would prefer NONE of what either the Federal or State Governments are doing in regards to ICT.
anonymous
Oct 6, 2009 9:47 AM
@D2011, the issues in this thread are the (NSW) government decisions re installed software, and the (NSW) government decision to talk about lockdown. As you may be aware, these implementations are a matter for state governments.

Have a look at all the other posts and you may start to understand why people are concerned about some of the details that have come to light. When you do that, you can also re-read my centrist fads comment in context, and see that it related only to a previous comment about a sponsorship proposal, which was nothing to do with the topic.

And methinks you doth protest too much about "a particular political persuasion". I didn't even mention politics so that's all in your own mind. I referred, quite reasonably and accurately, to the fact that the NSW government is not well regarded by the public who have to suffer the results of its actions.

For the record, I fully support the principle of governments providing children with equipment relating to their education, but like many other posters here, I believe the devil is in the detail.
Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu)
Oct 12, 2009 1:41 PM
The argument against Open Office is that used by Americans refusing the metric system - existing use OUGHT cause further intransigence. In other words, we will never move to something that makes more sense, because of the effort required.

I think Snowman and Sams have made far more valid points than Private Citizen. While Private Citizen has not achieved the 'face-plants' he claims, he has certainly shown how ad hominen attacks distract from the topic under discussion.

For one thing, there is NO downside employment issue in training our kids on Open Office, as it doesn't matter what software they might use at work, they will have a good free never-out-of-date office suite for use at home. It is a silly proposition that we should lock our kids into a proprietary solution when an open standards-based one exists.

I think those who think large IT companies play fair ought read the ITnews item:
www.itnews.com.au/News/157594,five-lock-in-traps-to-avoid-when-buying-software.aspx
as it does explain just how lock-in works.

I take comfort from the fact that the one commentator who is involved in the roll-out (while claiming to disagree with me) notes that he and others are constantly making requests to ensure that the NetNazi approach is not too suffocating. Well, I think that WAS my major point - that I did not mind a standard operating environment (if you were going to ask for help) but a complete exclusion of loading other useful software dramatically lessened the usefulness of the Fed netbooks. In other words, the netbooks ought be usable in a home environment, even if a button might need to be pressed (thumb drive loaded etc) to restore to 'factory settings' if ever asking for help.

And one commentator suggested my comments could not be considered, unless I experience with large roll-outs. Well, a firm I co-founded and was Joint-MD of did manage 10,000+ PCs across a large number of sites, running our app for commercial purposes, and we did provide first line hardware and software support of all those users. But times have changed, and it still irks me to have young students fed into the Microsoft mill to pay offshore licence fees for the rest of their lives, simply because a few DET managers were too lazy to use Open Office. Do study the earlier links I provided on the graft and corruption involved in foiling the proper purposes of national standards committees by Microsoft.

And now DET is talking about maybe using laptops in the HSC by 2012 for certain subjects. I think that if the state school kids have been corralled in the DET straight-jacket for three years, unable to use their netbooks for other purposes, they might be at a competitive disadvantage to those in private schools, using computers generally. Alternatively, if the HSC is to become based on the narrow prescriptive tech approach of DET, then free-thinkers outside the public system ought be alarmed at the announcement. DET is going proprietary and then testing on such proprietariness. Either way, it seems the NetNazi approach will be a problem going forward.

And to those who've objected to my use of "M$" as an abbreviation, my sister suffers from "MS" (the disease) the the disease people had first rights to that abbrev.
peterh_oz
Oct 12, 2009 9:45 PM
[quote]and have tracked a teacher using their device on a field trip in New Zealand{/quote

So, you can be tracked? What privacy provisions are built into this? Who sees the info, what govt depts see and can use/link the info?

Was Orwell right?

And yes I have a problem with a limit on software being allowed on, but I can also understand why it is limited. Maybe, if the list was expanded and both the school and the DET could allow additional software (eg setup a filehippo.com style site) this could be ok. Not just for free software - you could buy your licence for paid software there too.

But as a software retailer, I want to be able to sell to NSW families - am I now prevented from doing so? Is this a Trade Practices Act / Restraint of Trade / Competition Policy issue?

Peter H
www.SeeknBuy.com.au
Australia's IT Superstore
Home of Australia's Best Value Broadband with our exclusive $15 cashback offer
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