NSW starts school netbook rollout

Aug 26, 2009 3:16 PM
Filed under Hardware

Year 9 students get Windows 7 early.

The NSW Government has started rolling out 70,000 netbooks to Year 9 students and teachers as part of the Federal digital education revolution initiative.

Deputy Prime Minister, Julia Gillard and NSW Minister for Education and Training, Verity Firth visited Fairvale High School in Sydney's west to see how the laptops would be integrated into lessons.

According to Gillard, the netbooks came with "$5,500 of the latest Microsoft and Adobe software".

This included the new Microsoft operating system, Windows 7, "making NSW students and teachers among the very first in the world to have access to the finalised software", the Redmond-based giant said in a statement.

According to Microsoft, over 220,000 netbooks would be delivered to students and teachers in NSW, at a cost of $386 million.

The Department put the figure at "over 200,000".

The rollout would be completed in 2012.

Firth said the rollout "would begin with Year 9 students and for the next four years" with "each new Year 9 class in NSW government schools" receiving a laptop.

"This is a gift for every government high school student in NSW - once they have finished Year 12, they can keep their laptop for good," she said.

An additional 400 IT support officers would provide on-site assistance to students and teachers, "providing more jobs in the current tough economic climate", Firth said.

18 comments in this discussion

"> i'm just well acquainted with reality of using microsoft products versus working with open communities and the commercial support that surrounds them. So am I & have found that I rarely have ..."

By D2011

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Comments: 18

mck Aug 26, 2009 4:33 PM	Why would you waste (up to) $120 million dollars on microsoft when there are completely free alternatives that are better suited for an educational and learning?!! Give children computers with software that are open so that they can learn _everything_ about the computer.
HyRax Aug 26, 2009 4:51 PM	Windows 7 by itself serves absolutely NO educational value to children at all. It's an operating system, not a Office package, or a Training tool. Kids need to be learning about computing CONCEPTS so they are armed with the knowledge to use anything, not just how to use Microsoft-only products. They should be using open source tools which means all that money saved on licensing can be used far more productively, or put back into the school to benefit the KIDS, not Microsoft.
RPS Aug 26, 2009 5:30 PM	$120M waste? try $300M waste if you include the Lenovo portion! Apart from a DER initiative, this program was also meant to (and should have) stimulate the Australian economy. We did this by sending $100M to USA (Microsoft thanks us!) And we sent $200m+ to China (and Lenovo thanks us!) We could have assigned local companies to assemble these netbooks and provide an enormous amount of local content and employment. But our fearless leaders saw it fit to send $300M overseas instead and support employment in USA and China. The bottom line however is even worse! This netbook rollout will prove to be the greatest 'white elephant' in our state history and we, the taxpayers, will be the 'bunnies' once more.
HyRax Aug 27, 2009 4:50 PM	@RPS: Ah, but you forgot that all the kids get free PC's, which means those sheep-like, vote-toting parents will keep this Government in power longer... as long as they keep getting frivolous freebies! Priorities, man! ;)
D2011 Aug 28, 2009 1:26 PM	There is no point in trying to hail the virtues of Linux when it covers only 3% of the market. Im a big Linux fan & have open suse & ubuntu at home & work, but to be fair, its not as easy to use as Windows or MAC. The MAJORITY of the worlds software is compatible with windows, followed by Mac, then Linux. Sure you can have bootcamp or wine, but out of the box natively, the average user cannot do & access what a windows user can. 90% of users dont want to google how to get adobe working on linux, they just want to turn on the computer & work. Hyrax & RPS, re-vote toting. What did Howard do?....Take money OUT of every sector, plus sell telstra. Real smart.
mck Aug 28, 2009 5:41 PM	I agree what Rudd is doing is a whole lot better than Howard. Ubuntu is indisputable easier than Windows. To install and to use. No questions about it. And your argument about market coverage is completely invalid. What i learnt in my computer science bachelor degree was completely irrelevant to the tools i used the very next year. Do you honestly think that, for 15 year olds, 3 years latter the same tools will be used? Do you really think teachers should be worrying about tools and market coverage today rather than core concepts? And do you really think year 9 will be using any of the tools that only runs on Windows? AutoCAD design? I doubt it. When it comes to concepts linux (and mac) provide a much closer experience to the underlying computing concepts, while microsoft abstract these concepts away as a business model to lock users into their programs. They do this from the protocol level up to the UI, and it's not a secret - just business as usual. The evidence is there too. The children i've seen brought up on linux adapt easily, seamlessly, across all platforms, and i've read similar experiences on BBC. While microsoft children are lost as soon as they change program. You just cant let commercial interests take such strangle holds on your education system. As far as the children go the argument really is a no brainer. The counter argument, and i play my own devils advocate here, is that you need to include the teachers into the equation. Many of them have already been sucked into the windows world and it could be difficult for them start teaching Ubuntu. But i'd kinda be hoping that the teachers were getting re-trained anyway so to handle a classroom of children with notebooks.
D2011 Aug 28, 2009 9:04 PM	mck: Ubuntu is easier to use than Windows? I work with Mac, Linux & Windows everyday & have converted many people to either open source Os's or replaced much of the software they use with open source. However, it is simply NOT easier to use than Windows & Mac. For a tech or power user who enjoys working with computers, yes. But like I say, its not for the majority.Installing? No arguement there, Linux wins everytime. I made a mistake earlier with statistics, linux actually has a 1.05% market share: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8 Go to any pc store, games shop or harvey norman & see how many peripherals ,software & games are linux compatable. Ive got many of them working on my linux boxes but its not a no brainer & plug & play like Windows or Mac. I fantasize like many that "this year is the year Linux will take over". But we need to face reality. Australia is a services country : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia We are fast losing our manufacturing to Asia & mining of the future will employ less people ( due to machines) not more. So we need people who are least familiar just slightly with a mainstream computer OS, peripherals & software to be job ready & like it or hate it Micro$oft has the market share..... for the short term future. Do you use any Micro$oft products? Does your workplace? How many servers & apps at your uni were running Linux compared to Windows? I cant employ a person who only knows Linux & not Windows or Mac. I CAN employ someone who knows ONLY Windows or Mac but no Linux. Sure laptops are more prone to failure, breakage, theft etc etc. But for flexibility & being able to bring the computers to the class & not the class to the computers, you cant compare. Its impractical to put a desktop pc in EVERY classrom for EVERY desk or have just ONE computerlab where students go once or twice a week, they need to use them in every class, indoors, outdoors, at home & on excursions.
mck Aug 28, 2009 11:25 PM	Ubuntu is easier to use than Windows. Especially when it comes to using your basic programs: email, browsing, office, etc. Given that peripherals are ready installed/supported to go for the classrom. Which i suspect such a rollout to students would include. Then self configuration of any random peripheral, outside of the education system, should the student's own responsibility and not the taxpayers. There's no such thing as a linux user that doesn't know how to user windows. You raise them on Ubuntu you end up with a better economy, and not just from saving $300 million taxpayers money each year. > Sure laptops are more prone to failure, breakage, theft etc etc you lost me here?
D2011 Aug 29, 2009 8:00 AM	Yep, I agree once its all set up its (ubuntu) easier, more stable, cheaper, more feature rich. I have my mum & my sister on ubuntu, because they need exactly what you describe, email (evolution) , browsing (firefox) office ( open office). Its perfect for that..... but then they get adventurous & want to install some other programs....then they call me. "What is rpm, what is tar, what do I do with it, its so frustrating". With Windows (unfortunately) & Mac its a no brainer to install. There is rarely a battle or a forum to be read. Dont tell me you havent been there before, reading forums on how to get certain software or peripherals working on Linux. You think the average user can be bothered? Yes, a linux laptop could be pre-configured with all the software & peripherals. But most of the kids wouldnt be able to get another peripheral they bought going on the laptop without much reading. Then there is the matter of configuration & support. There are hundreds of schools to roll out. If you were to roll out Linux, who is going to install, configure & troubleshoot it? The existing techs? How many techs do you think would need retraining? If they got Macs or Pc's, the existing techs dont have to retrain. Or should they sack all the non linux compliant techs & get the 1% of techs out there who CAN configure & troubleshoot linux to roll out hundreds of schools & finish the job in 2070? Its not feasible. Suppose they DID roll out ALL Linux in all schools. What happens when the kids are job ready? How many job ads have you seen that say "MUST have linux or open office write & calc experience". Or are you more likely to see "word & excel experience?" http://www.seek.com.au/job/in-bound-customer-service-am-pm/melbourne/15922982/76/1/ The reality is, that 90% of every job sector use microsoft Os's and/or software developed to work on windows. Its sad, but its futile to deny it. > Sure laptops are more prone to failure, breakage, theft etc etc you lost me here? The story is about laptop roll outs in NSW. I was commenting on its merits.
mck Aug 29, 2009 7:12 PM	> Dont tell me you havent been there before, reading forums on > how to get certain software or peripherals working on Linux. Yes. But my point being is, this experience outside of the education system, worth $300 million every year of taxpayers money? Furthermore this situation would quickly improve given the thousand of kids every year creating the demand for better support. Look what Ubuntu has done in just two years. > How many techs do you think would need retraining? Probably only a handful. Given the notebooks are the same spec, and they have a list of supported peripherals the schools will use, then you only have to configure one machine and image it. This scenerio is a blessing with linux compared to both mac and windows. With /home under a separate partition students notebooks can easily have the original image restored (in minutes) so their participation in the classroom is not interrupted. > Suppose they DID roll out ALL Linux in all schools. What > happens when the kids are job ready? I stand by all the research that shows young linux students are fully qualified for these jobs as any other. What exactly is the difference between write & word, between calc & excel? I think you're too old school here and not seeing just how savvy our youth are.
Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) Aug 31, 2009 10:04 AM	I have used every M$ OSs since PCDOSv1.1, but agree that Ubuntu is FAR easier to install, far more robust, and does ALL of the things a basic user needs, without any tech help. Yes, if you then allow students to buy any of 100+ printers, tablets, etc, you will have install issues. However, it is very easy to have a list of available well-supported printers that just work 'out of the box' on Ubuntu. Nominating just particular "supported" devices is typical for any large-scale roll-out, irrespective of OS. To me, the argument is about avoiding 'vendor lock-in'. The NSW state government considers all the software is 'free', but M$ will recoup that money from those users over the rest of their working life, once they are trained on proprietary products. It would be far better to get the kids trained on open-source software, implementing true-ISO-standard formats. That way Australia (over a generation) could shift from proprietary to standards-based computing. Then we'd see government departments making tender documents available in ODT format (with a DOC version also available for you if you were a laggard)... etc. I just don't buy the argument that it will be cheaper with proprietary... but after hundreds of software rebuilds, requiring licence numbers to re-install, perhaps even NSW DET will see the wisdom of dumping the proprietary bits and rolling out an open-source upgrade in 2011... as it would cost nothing to dump the not-paid-for M$-based proprietary software and install the no-price-to-pay-ever open-source equivalents. But DET should pre-warn schools and the IT support staff that they should become familiar with Open Office etc, in the interim. Btw, even if the M$ stuff is free, and even if you want to go Win7, there was NO possible justification for going with IE and M$office over Firefox and OpenOffice running on an M$ OS. In other words, even if you want a proprietary operating system, there was no justification in seeking to lock the kids into using a non-standards-compliant browser or poor-standard office, when free-and-compliant versions were available. That decision was just about p*ssing in the pocket of a proprietary vendor. Even though M$ would have said "It's all part of the package" M$ would not have walked away from free supply of the OS if the office productivity stuff was still the vastly-superior open versions. And that would have left the door open to run either OS underneath in subsequent years... as once users are used to Firefox and OpenOffice, they can hardly tell if it is Ubuntu or Windows underneath.
danyj028 Aug 31, 2009 1:40 PM	>>What exactly is the difference between write & word, >>between calc & excel? I think you're too old school here >>and not seeing just how savvy our youth are. Exactly! This argument that somehow one needs to be trained in Excel or Word is complete non-sense. Give a kid a Nokia latest mobile phone and then give the same kid a latest Motorola mobile phone. (or whatever brand you want) - I bet you the kid will figure it out in no time how to do what he wants even though the interface is different. Why? because she/he understands the generic functions and features irrespective of the make of the equipment. If a kid is able to do this, there is no reason why he/she cannot do the same and learn to use a SPREADSHEET Application and not Excel. Cheers
Tinrib Aug 31, 2009 4:44 PM	It's about risk, not features. I am just wondering what the impact of thousands of new users online updating simultaneously would have on the local Ubuntu repos servers. Imagine they went down on day one of the rollout. I wouldn't want to be the guy who recommended it would you? I'd want to make it Microsoft's problem so I could keep my job. Sad but true.
mck Aug 31, 2009 10:23 PM	Who's idea of risk management is this? Hey guys if something goes wrong, well at least, we can all point the finger at microsoft. Typical dead wood management. Completely void of any real problem solving skills, only looking for ways of covering their own ass. A problem is a problem, and if you are relying on microsoft to fix it, no matter how much you point your fingers at them, you're f*****.
D2011 Sep 1, 2009 9:45 AM	Mck, its amazing how many people have great suggestions around boardroom tables & meeting rooms, but how few are there to back them up or follow them through. Your point of view is coming from a fan perspective & not one based on reality. Graeme sums up the reality in one particular line: "But DET should pre-warn schools and the IT support staff that they should become familiar with Open Office etc, in the interim." Amongst all the chest beating & bleating about stickin it to the man (Bill), those few lines point to why its a problem. They "SHOULD"? I gather there is no real opposition to NSW Gov rolling out laptops to each student, but the real sticking point is why didnt they use Linux as the OS or at least use open source apps on a PC or MAC if they MUST go that way? Like I pointed out before & like Tinrib mentioned, the risk factor is too great with Linux at present. If you guys have ever gone through any change management for a large enterprise, you would realise its a massive job & issue. Multiply that across an entire country. There are issues with training for IT staff, teachers & students, all for an OS that has a 1% market & a country that is 90% Micro$oft. The fanboys quickly dissapear when there is work to be done or responsibility to be shared. I agree they should at least be using open source software & Linux should be either an elective or some sort of subject, but an entire OS AND software change across the board , just because it appeases fanboys & its stickin it to the man is not a valid excuse. It (linux & open source software) needs to be eased in, not a complete overhaul. Its fine to think in isolation of your own experiences or how well kids adapt. But what about teachers? Many can barely use 1 OS let alone 3, which they would be required to do, as currently the classrooms have Mac, the office administration has PC & the teachers at home have mainly PC.
mck Sep 2, 2009 5:15 PM	D2011, come one. i bought up the reality with retraining teachers in a previous comment (before Graeme). I'm not wanting to stick it to Bill, i'm just well acquainted with reality of using microsoft products versus working with open communities and the commercial support that surrounds them. I think you're glorifying your own stance as much as illustrating anybody that realises microsoft as a poorer solution being a "fan boy". > It (linux & open source software) needs to be eased in, not a complete overhaul. Exactly. Right now there's no change because the program started from scratch. By making the wrong decision now they themselves have committed themselves to this "complete overhaul". And it will happen, it's only a matter of time. And the overhaul need not be such a "drama", look at how the whole public sector in Munich switched to open source.
Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) Sep 2, 2009 8:32 PM	To set the record straight, I was NOT suggesting that the best approach was for DET to go with Win7 and gradually introduce open source apps on top of that M$ proprietary OS. Rather I have argued that Ubuntu IS more robust and is so easy to support and maintain that it SHOULD have been selected as the OS by NSW DET. I understand that the staff may be currently skilled only on M$ rebuilds etc... but really any 13yo could maintain a Ubuntu netbook, in that all each school would need is a USB thumb drive which, if inserted while the PC was rebooted would cause the PC to auto-reinstall from the stick (ie go back to the 'factory install' - ie the standard DET installation). Each student would clearly need to back up their own work area of not-yet-submitted assignments, in case the PC did need to be so 'reset' at any time. But frankly, unlike Windows, Ubuntu just doesn't need to be 'fixed' anywhere near as often as M$. But, what I did suggest was that, GIVEN the NSW DET has already selected Windows7, the best course for it to take now is to advise everyone that NSW schools will be going to open source solutions on a relatively short time-frame. [But running Open Office, Firefox etc on top of Windows 7 is not as good as going with a clean Ubuntu install from the outset.]
D2011 Sep 3, 2009 8:32 PM	> i'm just well acquainted with reality of using microsoft products versus working with open communities and the commercial support that surrounds them. So am I & have found that I rarely have to contact any M$ support as there is a squillion pages of answers & people WILLING to help & KNOW how to help with M$. Whereas Linux , like its 1% share has a fraction of the support & the support that it DOES have is a minefield of obnoxious elitists. I have never in the 15 years I have been in the business had someone on a M$ forum attempt to belittle me because I didnt know how to code. Linux on the other hand has a major chip on its shoulder still & only in recent years has had to concede that the world wasnt go to come around to its way of thinking, it (Linux) had to adapt to what users wanted & cater for low end users with friendlier desktops. Only advanced users of Windows & MAC need to know any CLI or anything about the registry. Linux on the other hand & even with Ubuntu , you need to get into a terminal at an intermediate level to achieve what windows & MAC does at the GUI. When Linux gets over this hurdle, they will kill M$ stone dead. Personally I prefer Suse over Ubuntu as YAST to me seems to be a far better at package management. For school kids Ubuntu OR Suse is fine, as they wouldnt be doing anything advanced anyway. But you keep forgetting the techs & teachers. The support & retraining in this area would be phenomenal. > look at how the whole public sector in Munich switched to open source. Well theres always 2 sides to any story. Yes Munich decided to give M$ the boot, but lets not let the facts get in the way of a good throw away comment & a little linux bias. It was given the go ahead in 2003. 3 years later in 2006 they had an amazing earth shuddering 100 desktops converted...Phwoarh! As of July 2009 they have 2000 desktops out of 14000 converted. Impressive....NOT. What they saved in licences, they ate up in support & they are only 14% of the way through. So much for "Its so much cheaper & easier". For every Munich there is a Paris, who pulled it out, due to incompatability & confusion. How many schools & computers are we talking about in Australia? A few hundred thousand? It took Munich 7 years to get to 14%. If we did that in Australia, we would have most kids out of school before they ever got to see ol TUX on a computer. We need kids with computers NOW. Every private & catholic school has one per student , while public schools share 4 per class of 30. Im all for giving them (kids)access to open source software, but they need computers NOW & the ONLY way NOW can be achieved is with Windows or MAC.