Day 18: Studios call for Federal Court to disregard iiNet evidence

 

Claims ISP took inadequate steps to combat infringement.

The film industry has accused ISP iiNet of making contradictory statements with regards to evidence of alleged copyright infringement found on its network by AFACT investigators - which could ultimately damage iiNet's credibility in the copyright case, the Federal Court heard this morning.

Continuing his closing statements, the film industry's lead barrister Tony Bannon claimed the ISP's "written, press release and affidavit word" had either asserted or included statements that suggested the ISP couldn't act on copyright infringement notices from the Australian Federation Against Copyright Theft because they were "mere allegations."

"But when asked the question in cross-examination, the truth is they regarded the notifications as compelling evidence," Bannon said.

"It's another dramatic example of the lack of credibility that can be attached to evidentiary statements by iiNet. To the extent that there are still shreds [of evidence] left to support any aspect of their case, Your Honour should disregard them."

It followed similar assertions made by Bannon in closing yesterday that iiNet chief Michael Malone's evidence was "evasive", "incredible" and unreliable.

Bannon also criticised iiNet today over the "reasonable steps" it claimed to have taken to address alleged infringement on its network.

He was particularly critical of iiNet's failure to apply capabilities used to get customers to pay overdue bills to instances of alleged infringement.

These capabilities included sending warning emails to overdue accounts, an ability to ‘playpen' the account so that account holder is able to access only a website where they can pay their bill, or the ability to terminate the account holder's access completely should the bill remain unpaid.

The film industry claimed these same capabilities - warnings, 'playpenning' and ultimately termination - could double as "reasonable steps" for acting on copyright infringement allegations.

"[But when it's about copyright infringement] that's when the shutters come down," Bannon claimed.

"That's when it all becomes too difficult."

Is the code a reasonable step?

Bannon claimed iiNet's participation in 2005 discussions with the Internet Industry Association to draft an ISP code to deal with allegations of copyright infringement also did not constitute a reasonable step in stopping or preventing infringing activities on its own network.

"Engaging in industry code discussions was not a rational or reasonable step because it wasn't addressing the day-to-day problem," Bannon claimed.

He also alleged the code that the "core of combative ISPs, of which iiNet appears to be one" was attempting to create with the IIA was one that would ultimately require ISPs to "do nothing" when it came to passing on the notices.

The code never made it out of draft form, the court heard in cross-examination last week.

And Bannon claimed that iiNet's freezone of legal content also did not constitute a reasonable step towards dealing with alleged copyright infringement on its network.

"At the end of the day the question is what are reasonable steps," Bannon put to the court.

"The application of reasonable steps is not by the creation of the freezone. [Its creation] cannot overcome iiNet's knowledge or refusal to act on their own terms [dealing with copyright infringement in the customer relationship agreement]."

He added: "If it's a clause they have no intention of enforcing, they're in the position, the clause may as well not exist at all."

Bannon claimed that proposition would mean iiNet users were free to use their internet service from iiNet "for any purpose. And that makes the argument for authorisation even stronger," he said.

The case continues. You can follow the case in-full here. For a background on the case, click here.


Day 18: Studios call for Federal Court to disregard iiNet evidence
"If it's a popular torrent (lots of seeders), and you have a decent upload speed it's perfect. I logged into a university network and uTorrent automatically downloaded off LAN peers so I had ..."
By TruthSphere
 
 
 
Comments: 33
RogerDodger
Nov 11, 2009 2:33 PM
@rycrozier: Thanks for you prompt reporting during the case Ry - much appreciated. Good work!
hellfire
Nov 11, 2009 5:40 PM
Bannon conveniently plays dumb I'm sure. AFACT notices ARE ONLY allegations until they get a COURT JUDGEMENT against the person alleged to infringe copyright. ONLY THEN will the AFACT notice enable an ISP to discipline their user. Really it is so simple. An ISP is not the Copyright Holder and therefore has no interest desire or legal obligation to police copyright which is the copyright owners responsibility to police. If someone is breaching their copyright then they should be suing them and not an ISP who is merely providing a service. We do not sue the Transport Department when we have a traffic accident because they provide the road on which it happened. IT IS THE SAME PRINCIPLE.
zag
Nov 11, 2009 5:59 PM
I really wonder at how an ISP is going to handle a copyright website etc, going to see a trailer could be breaking copyright as well. is AFACT expecting every ISP to disconnect everyone from the net.

Now it's just becoming quite silly as AFACT are trying to use anything just so they can circumvent the courts or police.
Digger11
Nov 11, 2009 6:14 PM
But iiNet are still evil for not even bothering to forwarding on the AFACT notices like all of the other major ISP's did.
It was a totally stupid, possibly ignorant, but more likely greedy approach by this company.

They used this strategy to attract many 1,000's of cusotmers and should be derided by the whole Industry for doing so now they have been causght out.

I, for one, will never speak to Malone or Dalby again.
pete123
Nov 11, 2009 6:43 PM
From what I've read, none of the major ISP's passed on their notices. I've read nothing about Telstra, Optus or iPrimus passing on notices. Just a couple of relatively obscure providers who may have been breaking the law in doing so*.

*we don't know if they are\were breaking the law because none of their customers as yet have taken them through the court system for a judge to rule one way or the other.
cjc1959au
Nov 11, 2009 7:00 PM
So as I understand things Digger11, (who it appears has his own agenda against iiNet), if I approach your ISP and make an allegation that you have been downloading copyrighted material, you are OK with having your ISP pass that on to you?

If I do it a second time, without actually proving to an independent member of the judiciary, you are OK with your ISP limiting your service.

If I do it a third time, still without actually proving anything to an independent member of the judiciary, you are OK with them canceling your service?

And just for the record, iiNet haven't been "caught out" doing anything. Just because AFACT (a biased party) has made an allegation against iiNet does not make anything iiNet has done yet either illegal or immoral.

It is not iiNet's job to police their customers, except in specific circumstances that their customers agree to when they sign up. The same principle can be applied to Telstra being asked to police what their phone customers say on the phone.

I have found it interesting tho, that AFACT have attacked iiNet and not Telstra/Bigpond and Optus, our 2 largest ISPs.

Is that just because they believe only iiNet is not doing what they ask so they are chucking a tantrum? iiNet will not be the only ISP not passing on allegations of "alleged" copyright abuse.

Or is it more likely that Telstra/Bigpond and Optus/Singtel have the funds and technical manpower to be able to make Bannon look like an even bigger fool than he is and kick their pathetic butts out of court for not knowing the difference between a Bit Torrent Tracker, client and/or protocol?

And the end of the day, as with any legal case, it will not matter about right or wrong. It will not matter about the legal uses for Bit-Torrent. It will not matter about anything other than who can make the judge believe his case better than his opponents.

But the ramifications for even more eroding of our rights looks to be getting closer and closer with this case.
btone
Nov 11, 2009 7:27 PM
Hmm... Digger 11 gets stranger...and even stranger.

Just which 'major' isps, apart from your fave rave excretel, have been sending the AFACT unproved allegations?

Why would Mssrs malone and Dalby be the slightest bit concerned with the likes of you speaking to them in the first place?

Have a nice day Mr L...ton, rofl...
CodeSeeker
Nov 11, 2009 7:46 PM
Lol as far as i can tell most of IInet evidence is legal stature.. and Bannon is asking the judge to disregard the law as it is not compelling.

Well i think not paying your internet bills is a criminal case, plus billing is not a third party.

What Bannon is trying to suggest is that a motor vehicle company is responsible for drivers speeding because they make cars faster than the speed limit.. And they (the motor vehicle company) get more money from selling faster cars than slower ones) hence they are promoting speeding.. especially when they have ads of their cars going really fast, and odometers that go up to 260km/h. So when someone is caught speeding they sue the car manufacture to pay the fine..

Slatts
Nov 11, 2009 10:19 PM
Digger11 wrote:
But iiNet are still evil


That's a joke right?
If iinet qualify as evil in your personal universe Dig, you must have lead a pretty sheltered existence.

CodeSeeker wrote:
especially when they have ads of their cars going really fast, and odometers that go up to 260km/h.


The odometer in my car goes to 9999999Km
The speedometer on the other hand maxxes out at perhaps 260Km/Hr.
Of course the manual says the engine controller is factory set to not allow the car to exceed 220Km/Hr.

frances
Nov 12, 2009 1:42 AM
This really is a weird case. Channel 7 should lawyer-up because they're next. They screened a movie last night some dastardly fiend secretly recorded and watched later. And what about Harvey Norma? Rumour has it they sell machines especially for doing that. OMG!
Private Citizen
Nov 12, 2009 1:25 PM
@cjc1959au "I have found it interesting tho, that AFACT have attacked iiNet and not Telstra/Bigpond and Optus, our 2 largest ISPs."

Telstra and Optus have significant Cable media interests, making them powerful customers of the members AFACT group represent. In the event that AFACT wins this case, the cost burden on IINET and smaller ISP's could possibly change the commercial landscape for the big two ISP's.

@Digger11 - because everybody else has. Your arguments seem to put you in the disgruntled customer/employee or an AFACT lunch buddy.

Lets not forget now that the high bandwidth network has been built by the minor competitors "on the backs of torrent downloaders" AFACT will use the same bandwidth capacity to push video on demand, pay for view, etc. does IINET get consideration for making that possible? By making these markets possible does that not offset any claims against IINET?
Johnny
Nov 12, 2009 8:14 PM
Google > define:fascism >
"a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism) "

How this relates to this case?

well i'll just keep this response short by saying:

-AFACT make a complaint to IINET (in the hope that user gets disconnected).

-IINET LEGALLY DOES NOT HAVE TO DO A THING, yes that's right you fascists at AFACT.

-AFACT if they bothered to get court orders (due process), to prove that anyone did anything would require IINET to act by disconnecting/warning the customer.

Digger11, you have no idea how the world works.
Johnny
Nov 12, 2009 8:16 PM
I forgot to add my last point

-If AFACT were the government, they would be facist.
zag
Nov 13, 2009 1:20 AM
@Digger11

You do know that Telstra don't bother with these notices as they don't really mean all that much, so they don't pass them onto anyone as well as iiNet.

Now Telstra will have checked out about these with the law via QCs so if they are trashing them how do you think this court case will go?

and I think Optus is in the same boat.
Digger11
Nov 13, 2009 7:53 AM
I know for AFACT [sic] that Optus pass the notices on.

As Telstra charges for Uploads it is debatable over how many Bit Torrect users thay have. It would only be a fraction of the number of iiNet.
Remember that IInet promoted itself as a young and funky ISP and turned a blind eye to illegal copyright downloading to get a sizable competitive advantage in this market segment.

Justin Milne has always clearly stated that one of the reasons Bigpond charges for uploads is because they do not want to attract torrent users as they are mainly up to no good.
TruthSphere
Nov 13, 2009 8:43 AM
And you think exetel with it's massive quotas and extremely low prices wouldn't attract the 'illegal copyright' downloaders? Of course they did, that's why they made a deal with AFACT, to save their asses.

Oh but yeh your right Exetel are white knights, who turn a blind eye to due process and are willing to punish customers based on pure allegation..
Digger11
Nov 13, 2009 8:52 AM
at least Exetel sent out the infringement notices.
TruthSphere
Nov 13, 2009 9:00 AM
NAKED DSL COMPARISON:

iinet - $59.95 - 8gig + 8gig (22 DivX Movies)
exetel - $60.00 - 50gig + 60gig (157 Divx Movies)

No wonder they made a deal, with their extremely low profit margins they couldn't afford a legal fight, exetel aren't stupid. Why else would a usually media shy ISP lash out randomly at another ISP fighting for rights of all ISP's?
TruthSphere
Nov 13, 2009 9:04 AM
iinet sent them to the police (you know the guys who the public pay to fight crime? I think that's one step up if anything.

Digger11 I allege that you download movies mate, can I have your current session IP and the name of your ISP please?
Rhino
Nov 13, 2009 10:06 AM
@Digger11. You are unable to note an impartial statement about this case. This is purely personal for you

"I, for one, will never speak to Malone or Dalby again."

So come on, what personal affront did either of these people do to you which warrants such uneducated rants?
Digger11
Nov 13, 2009 1:29 PM
@Rhino
I have not heard any impartial statements from any of the iiNet staff psoting about this topic around here.

iiNet have at last been caught out. Thye cannot hide behind the biased censorship of Whirlpool.
This court case is in the public domain - go and re-read Malon and Dalby's response to the barrister's - they really are a disgrace.

Desk
Nov 13, 2009 1:52 PM
@Digger11
I never realised before that EVERYONE who has something good to say about iiNet are actually staff... it's amazing... i am a bit afraid to post anything because if i do then i'd have iiNet knocking on my door offering me a job! I know they're easily the best ISP I've been with (but it is limited to Telstra + iiNet... not exactly the biggest and most accurate test base)
Rhino
Nov 13, 2009 2:49 PM
@Digger11, nice sidestep. Way to dodge the question. This has nothing to do with whether iiNet are right or wrong, this is a personal thing for you, and therefore you are unable to offer balanced commentary.

Your statement "I, for one, will never speak to Malone or Dalby again." is a personal reference, and nothing to do with the case at hand.

I personally am a long time TPG subscriber, but, hey if iiNet want to offer ma a well paying job then I might just have to take it.
Simon900
Nov 13, 2009 3:47 PM
@ Everyone except Digger11. I did a search for clear unbiased comments from Digger11, and received:
Search
Your search for "digger11" returned 0 results
Well that's a surprise!
Private Citizen
Nov 13, 2009 4:31 PM
Hey does this mean I work for IINET as well, I could sure use a staff discount on my internet bill and the second wage :-)
cjc1959au
Nov 14, 2009 10:40 AM
@Digger11, They are not "infringement notices", they are "alleged infringement" notices.

There is a big difference between the 2.

"Infringement" notices are issued by parties that the courts have said "are legally entitled" to issue them.

AFACTs "alleged infringement" notices have NO legal binding on anyone, as they have not been issued by any court or any party authorised by a court.

You really do need to learn the differences in "distinction".
cjc1959au
Nov 14, 2009 10:42 AM
@Private Citizen, Thanks for that. I hadn't thought about the Telstra and Optus Cable networks being in a different area than their ADSL and 3G internet connections.

But I can see ways that would affect the outcome.
TruthSphere
Nov 14, 2009 11:32 AM
@Digger11

I couldn't give two f**ks about iinet other than the precedence that could be set in this case. I live in NSW (not WA) and I use eXetel. If I wanted to have any connection to iinet it would be donating to their legal fund.
tji30
Nov 16, 2009 9:49 PM
Only reason AFACT are going after iiNet is because it's too hard to go after the individual as they'd need to go through the proper legal channels to get the individuals details. iiNet are not too big to fight (unlike, say, Telstra) but are big enough to set a precident if AFACT wins.

iiNet's case should really be as simple as "get a court order & we'll abide by it".
addinall
Nov 17, 2009 6:18 PM
"I, for one, will never speak to Malone...."

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! I can imagine MM getting all teared up over that devastating news! No I don't work for iiNet. Used to. Brilliant company. And they are perfectly correct in thier defense. An ISP can't stop or limit a users net account based on an allegation. The police (and other departments) approach iiNet, OPTUS, Telstra daily with intervention orders, note orders, ordered by a court of law. Not at the whim of a member of the public. AFACT has no case.

Funny thing is, after 25 years as a network/software engineer for Paradox Digital, OPTUS, Telstra, OPTUS, iiNet, DCIS, That's IT and others, I had never heard of Pirate Bay until I started reading this case! And like MM, I had never used a Bittorent client before! If I need a DVD I usually go buy it from the shop at lunchtime. Gives me an excuse to get away from the box for half an hour. Thanks to the publicity AFACT have generated, I now know how to steal stuff! Do people use this Bittorrent crap? It sure is a boring and slow way of getting hold of poor quality media.
btone
Nov 18, 2009 6:47 AM
@addinall - Do people use this Bittorrent crap? It sure is a boring and slow way of getting hold of poor quality media.

One instance is sourcing extremely rare niche/cult products that:

1} The multinational controlled 'studios' do not deem worthy (in terms of gratuitous profit margin) to release here.

2) Were once available but are now not on issue (for the same reason).

3} Are not available from overseas suppiers such as Amazon.

Others may use the torrents to get access to contemporary television shows which Channel 7 (a party to the AFACT farce) and the other commercial (free - joke) tv channels 'park' and refuse to broadcast for their own (usually confused and self destructive) reasons. Why should locals have to wait until AFACT cronies deem a broadcast time is appropriate for them when overseas viewers have immediate access would be the reasoning here, and its the Australian average mum and dad consumer of AFACT's usually poor standard lowest common denominator rubbish that are the criminals here as opposed to the compulsive downloader of movies and music who leach the broadband capacities, watch/listen to the stuff and then delete it because mum and dad can't afford a terrabyte of hard drive for their Pentium 2 pc in the vampire pic bestooned bedroom!

Others see the product for what it is, mindless technically diluted and manipulated pap served up by artistic midgets in accountant suits to line the pockets of their masters and gouge the unfortunate artists, many of who are telling them to shove it up their mercedes/beemer/fat butt exhausts and are releasing their own free product to get fans and attract healthy live audiences.

So while the quality may be of a standard too low for us to bother with, others see these and other reasons to utilise P2P downloads despite AFACT's amusing legal prattling.
Sams
Nov 18, 2009 12:17 PM
addinall: "Do people use this Bittorrent" ...

It is good for downloading files where a central server would otherwise be overloaded. One example is Ubuntu ISOs when a new version of Ubuntu is released. At these times, Canonicals' servers become very slow, but BT maxes out the connection.

If you are a small operator trying to distribute a large file (e.g. campaign video) to many users, the BT is the ticket.

If you find BT slow, then you may have firewall issues.
TruthSphere
Nov 19, 2009 11:09 AM
If it's a popular torrent (lots of seeders), and you have a decent upload speed it's perfect. I logged into a university network and uTorrent automatically downloaded off LAN peers so I had massive files in minutes cause they already downloaded the same file.
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